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AngelCareOne
Hi, Jan and Ann. I read both your posts and feel pretty much the same even though I do my best to use a bit of humor to get my mind off stuff.

First of all, if anything can go wrong, it sure will! See what I mean?




Next: Did someone say, "Oh, what a beautiful, festive, joyful and Merry Christmas!"
Errr ... I don't think so!





But, the world still keeps on a turning and "stuff" still keeps on a happening. Doesn't it? Arg.




Hang in there, you two! Love you both to bits!!! wub.gif wub.gif wub.gif

Always,
Dottie xoxoxox
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (ann @ Dec 29 2008, 03:15 AM) *
Hi Jan, Been feeling really depressed as of late. I seem to want to run from everything and everyone around me. Then I come here and read your post. I hate change and don't adjust to it well at all. I tried to put myself in your place. Man, I just want so much for you to find the stregnth to get thru all this bs in your life. It's way too much..Is there anyway you can get off that property and start somewhere new??? I loved that prayer you posted and just wanted to let you know that I'm sending many more your way..and many much needed hugs.. Ann



Hi Ann - thanks for checking in and I'm sorry to here you are feeling depressed. I think the Christmas season brings that on for a lot of people! Wish sometimes we could just skip it altogether!

I still have financial things to sort out about the property. The problem with getting off this property is first of all that property values are low right now and I think I would lose a lot of money. And second, I am not sure how I would give my dogs Asha and Chance adequate exercise since they both have "social" issues, plus Ellie x-h's dog, if I still have her. Those are two big issues. Also I want to be careful not to make any big decision just yet. Moving is stressful too and especially if I don't even know what my future life will hold yet.

Thank you for sending the prayers - I love when people send me prayers and at times I swear I feel the prayer being sent. I've had a few moments of pure peace where I feel someone must be doing something, 'cause it sure don't seem to be coming from me!!

Sending you hugs too and I'll try my best to be an inspiration to you, 'cause if I can get through *this* then you can get through *that*!!! wink.gif

take care Ann and hugs back.

Jan.
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (AngelCareOne @ Dec 29 2008, 03:57 AM) *
Next: Did someone say, "Oh, what a beautiful, festive, joyful and Merry Christmas!"
Errr ... I don't think so!


No, me neither! Bah Humbug from me too!

thanks Dottie

Jan.
goliath
Happy New Year Jan,

It is now 11:00 p.m. About 15 miinutes ago, I was still at a party nextdoor. Suddenly I realized I really wanted to be home and thought about you and all the others who are having a hard time during this Holiday season. What I really want to say is that I wish you only the very best for 2009. You've been through more than your share, especially over the last month or so.

May 2009 be the time that all your wishes and dreams come true. smile.gif

Hugs,
Beth
Bubba
Hey Jan----
Hope your ok out there in snow country.Feelin vacant without Willy.Somewhat wordless tonite..........
Bubba.............
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (goliath @ Jan 1 2009, 12:09 AM) *
Happy New Year Jan,

It is now 11:00 p.m. About 15 miinutes ago, I was still at a party nextdoor. Suddenly I realized I really wanted to be home and thought about you and all the others who are having a hard time during this Holiday season. What I really want to say is that I wish you only the very best for 2009. You've been through more than your share, especially over the last month or so.

May 2009 be the time that all your wishes and dreams come true. smile.gif

Hugs,
Beth



Beth, thank you so much...

Jan.
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 1 2009, 04:23 AM) *
Hey Jan----
Hope your ok out there in snow country.Feelin vacant without Willy.Somewhat wordless tonite..........
Bubba.............


Hi Bubba

I know how you feel. I've been feeling like a broken record. x-h has pulled some real nasties lately. I've been feeling really physically nauseous and finding it hard to eat. Everything is dry and tasteless.

I feel like I might be draining people by talking about my pain; maybe I'm just tired of hearing about it myself.

Jan.
AngelCareOne
QUOTE (Zita'sMom @ Jan 2 2009, 12:00 PM) *
Hi Bubba

I know how you feel. I've been feeling like a broken record. x-h has pulled some real nasties lately. I've been feeling really physically nauseous and finding it hard to eat. Everything is dry and tasteless.

I feel like I might be draining people by talking about my pain; maybe I'm just tired of hearing about it myself.

Jan.


Hi Jan! Hey ... Me, too. I mean to tell ya I am really having a pity party for myself. Finally. Just go to my thread and read the last 3 posts or so I wrote to Bubba. Oy.
Like I said, "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!" I don't think so! ARG! mad.gif

Oh, and to top it off it's probably cold as heck where you ...

I sure hope you're keeping warm.

Please know I'm thinking about you, all you're going through and ...
Dammit! It stinks for you, Hon! There, I said it.

Okay, back to my "happy holiday smile" thing. And another Oy.

Love ya so much, Jan! Big Comforting Hugs!!! wub.gif wub.gif wub.gif

Your Pal
Dottie xoxoxox

PS. Don't you dare stop talking about all your gosh awful feelings, experiences and what's going on in your life right now. We care and love you!

So you just "Let 'er rip, Skip!" More Hugs!!!
Bubba
Naw your not draining nuthun,This mess called life is shared by the group as it were.One must vent or one explodes.
Bubba.......
Nemo's Mommy
Hi Jan!

I wanted to check in with you and see how you are doing. Funny thing, I was driving home and listening to this song by Pink and it totally made me think of you. Pink and her husband just went through a divorce, or are going through a divorce (not sure if it is finalized), and the song basically is just her saying a big $%##^#$ you to him. It's so funny and a really feel GOOD song. So dance around and remember "So what?" HUGS and more hugs!!!!!! And a big $#^$$ you to your ex!! Hee heeee sometimes it feels so good just to get that out!

http://music.aol.com/video/so-what/pink/2218482

Donna
Zita'sMom
Bubba and Dottie - you guys are the best! I love ya for saying those things!

Thanks for giving me permission to keep spewing forth until there is nothing left in my guts! Sounds gross but that's pretty much how it feels.

The thing is amongst all the weird games that x-h is playing that make me feel physically nauseous, I get such strong waves of grief about Zita and Ziggy. Zeus sometimes looks like Zita and when I see him all by himself it brings on the waves. And Ziggy, I'm finding it hard to look at her picture right now because it's almost more than I can bear.

At least I know you guys love me (((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))

thank you!

Jan
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Nemo's Mommy @ Jan 2 2009, 06:36 PM) *
Hi Jan!

I wanted to check in with you and see how you are doing. Funny thing, I was driving home and listening to this song by Pink and it totally made me think of you. Pink and her husband just went through a divorce, or are going through a divorce (not sure if it is finalized), and the song basically is just her saying a big $%##^#$ you to him. It's so funny and a really feel GOOD song. So dance around and remember "So what?" HUGS and more hugs!!!!!! And a big $#^$$ you to your ex!! Hee heeee sometimes it feels so good just to get that out!

http://music.aol.com/video/so-what/pink/2218482

Donna



Hi Donna - thanks for sending that!

That actually made me really laugh!! hahaha I've heard the song, but the video is much funnier.

Maybe I'll get me a tattoo on my butt and buy me a chainsaw!! Wouldn't that show him, eh!!?

Rock on baby!

smile.gif

Jan.

Bubba
You OK???????????
Bubba..........................
Furkidlets' Mom
I second that question. Don't TELL me you're now in the middle of all that flooding & mudsliding that's going on there now!!!
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 9 2009, 07:05 PM) *
You OK???????????
Bubba..........................

QUOTE
I second that question. Don't TELL me you're now in the middle of all that flooding & mudsliding that's going on there now!!!



Aww thanks guys for thinking of me... I'm okay, yeah. No flooding here just really icy and lots of piles of snow still. Also someone left a very rotten note on my car windshield with profanities saying my car was blocking the road - the car is clearly not blocking the road and it made me wonder if this was someone with a vendetta - perhaps Ziggy's killer. I have a feeling...

It was so weird today. I had to go to the bank and my mom was here from out of town. x-h's car was there. I went to the bank, came back to the car and she went to get a pound of coffee at the coffee shop. Well, funny thing x-h came out the back door of the coffee shop just as my mom was going in. (He never used that entrance way before....!) He made eye contact with me, waved, I nodded. The sad thing is, his eyes said that he still cared, though he can no longer admit that to himself or anyone. But he is totally messed up and his decision has shattered everything I tried to build with him. I could see in his eyes that his soul knows, that but his ego will not admit it; maybe never in this lifetime. I do still remember the person I "thought" he was, and feel very sad that this is not who he has turned out to really be. I guess these lessons show up in our lives to teach us various things.

Anyone for dream interpretation? Toonie? F-kidlets Mom? Dottie?

I understand some of this dream but not the end part.

Here is part of my dream - I was walking up a hill with my dog Sprite singing childish rhymes about x-h. "x-h is bad, x-sd will be sad" stuff like that - well I know that is the hurt child part of me trying to find comfort. Then I got to the top of the hill and there were two male orange tabby kittens and a calico kitten. They were all very friendly and sweet and I was afraid that they would get too close to Sprite and that she might snap at one of them. This part of the dream, to me, is about the trust and love within myself, and not wanting it to be hurt by the actions of x-h or anyone else who might try to hurt me. I have thought a lot about trust and openness during this process and how I don't want to be jaded by this experience as difficult as it's been. The last part is what I can't totally work out. There was a lost dog. People were calling it a husky, but it looked just like a small sheltie. I wanted to find out who owned the dog, and looked in the tube on it's collar that I thought would contain ID. Instead of ID, there was a credit for points towards dog food. Then I woke up. I think the lost dog is something to do with x-h, especially that everyone was calling it a husky when it was just a small dog, of a different breed - how x-h has appeared to be something he is not. But the credit towards dog food instead of finding ID, I just don't get the significance of that.... interpretations?

Thanks for caring guys. I'm still feeling physically nauseous, just beginning to look at financial things and it is very emotionally draining. So many memories about what I thought I was building with x-h, and the heavy reality of "what is".

Ellie (12 yr old GSD) is also starting to fail and has been falling down the stairs. I've agreed to keep her until x-h returns from a trip to England (that funny enough, I paid for before he split... how convenient) in March. After that, she will likely go back to him. Also painful stuff, but just taking it day by day.

Jan.

Bubba
Jan--------I wish this thing would get overwith so you can continue your life but I guess it determines it's own speed.Maybe your Mom can hang out with you for awhile.That would be good I think,
Take care Jan,
Bubba......................
toonie
QUOTE
But the credit towards dog food instead of finding ID, I just don't get the significance of that.... interpretations?


You find the two orange cats and a calico at the top of the hill. This represents your hopes and ideals, easily seen and easy to reach from where you stand. But the dog might get in the way of your ideals and harm what is good. Perhaps it means there is still stuff to let go of so that you can freely reach the hill without danger. The fact that others see a husky and you see a sheltie means now you know he is not as great as he seems. And that only material stuff will feed him, he doesn't want to you to know his name he just wants to be fed. Well one thing we can say is you deserve a lot of credit for trying to help this dirty dog wink.gif, for sure. Give yourself credit for all your valliant efforts, let go of what doesn't fit, move up hill where there is real love. wub.gif
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (toonie @ Jan 10 2009, 06:31 AM) *
You find the two orange cats and a calico at the top of the hill. This represents your hopes and ideals, easily seen and easy to reach from where you stand. But the dog might get in the way of your ideals and harm what is good. Perhaps it means there is still stuff to let go of so that you can freely reach the hill without danger. The fact that others see a husky and you see a sheltie means now you know he is not as great as he seems. And that only material stuff will feed him, he doesn't want to you to know his name he just wants to be fed. Well one thing we can say is you deserve a lot of credit for trying to help this dirty dog wink.gif, for sure. Give yourself credit for all your valliant efforts, let go of what doesn't fit, move up hill where there is real love. wub.gif


Wow Toonie, that makes a lot of sense.

Yes, the credit for dog food - the ego looking to be fed - instead of looking within at who you really are and where you come from, on that deeper level.... perhaps not wanting the real person to be "found" because of fear.

I think, in the dream, my concern about Sprite nipping one of the kitties, represents my own protectiveness of myself and the "snapping" that x-h sends my way. Also that I honor my own trusting "innocence", even though that trust has been well broken...

Your interpretation feels right to me.

thanks.

Jan.
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 10 2009, 12:47 AM) *
Jan--------I wish this thing would get overwith so you can continue your life but I guess it determines it's own speed.Maybe your Mom can hang out with you for awhile.That would be good I think,
Take care Jan,
Bubba......................


Yes, the snow has made things difficult. I can't get an assessment of my house and property until the snow melts. But I am beginning to forge onward looking at the financial stuff that needs to be looked at. I agree that cutting ties asap is the key to a happier future. This and Ellie will be the last of the ties with x-h. From there I can move forward in my life.

My mom lives an hour and a half drive away, but my parents have been very supportive. My dad said that x-h fooled him just as he did me. It's x-h's karma now. I still feel very hurt and in shock, but I am at peace with myself and I guess that is what's most important. I'm still going through a ton of grief and find it so hard to eat. It is a process and I am praying that this proces move quickly and positively through my life.

thanks Bubba

Jan.
Zita'sMom
I'm really hurting today.

Three times I have been in relationships where I have fully committed myself, given my full trust, and love. This last time I felt very sure my trust and love would be honoured but once I am, here again, rebuilding my whole life from scratch.

I need to somehow put this in a context somehow because the pain I am going through feels like more than I can bear at times.

I do wonder what my place is in life, and why I am even here. Just to go through so much hurt seems pointless without context. What hurts most is to not be loved by someone to whom I have gifted my trust and allowed my soul to be fully vulnerable. It is as if this gift "meant nothing." And that affects how I feel about me, especially when I respected that person's opinion so much.

I am not even really sure about the philosophy that we create our own lessons. What doesn't fit for me there is that we all have choice and those choices change. I have no control over another's choice.

Staying in this house with all the hopes and dreams we were building seems to be hurting me a lot... especially with all the work still needed, all the reminders of death and loss, and the isolation... it is a lovely place for a family but not so much for a single woman. At the same time I am concerned about a couple of my dogs with social problems and how I would exercise them without an acreage... so much to think about and just not sure which direction to go.

I went to an event that x-h and I would have both enjoyed. As I went to sign in, I saw his name on the list before me. I had friends with me and knew I would tough it out. But looked around and he wasn't there. He must have seen me and gone out the door, as he did with my mother the other day (she went in a coffee shop to buy a pound of coffee and I saw him sneaking through the back door).

He was doing hypnotherapy with someone I know and also getting advice from someone - these people were supposed "friends" of mine. I do not know what went on, but it definitely affected this shift, which seems in a way more like a nervous breakdown than anything that I can makes sense of.

He hid his feelings from me completely so I didn't know what was going on... if I had known, maybe I could have done something. I thought I was "safe" to express myself with him. I was completely fooled, completely snowed.

The film I went to (which x-h could have learned from if he'd actually stayed...) was Wayne Dyer's "Ambition to Meaning: Finding Your Life’s Purpose" I'm glad I went, it was a lovely film and good retreat from my feelings for a little while.

Jan.
Furkidlets' Mom
Well, I'm glad that you're not part of the flooding, anyway. Phew!

It's too bad that the ex is so close that it's all too easy to run into him around there, but it's good that you're not letting him fool you anymore. As you said,
QUOTE
...his decision has shattered everything I tried to build with him.
How could someone ever forget those kinds of choices?! To trust (him) again, after that kind of behaviour and action would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

The thing about dream interpretation is that it's so personal to the one dreaming it. One therapist I worked with for a time, although well-versed in dream symbology, preferred to do it a more personal way, that being taking what YOU thought any particular item or person represented to you, and working out the meaning from those things.

So I can only give you my own impression of what the I.D. and such might mean....w/o even looking anything up in dream symbol books. My first impression of "I.D" is that it could easily relate to one's identity....and however all-encompassing or less your ideas of what "identity" are, on whatever level(s). And for a "credit", to me that speaks of something that will or can be used to redeem something in the future. And "food", to me, could be related to 'feeding' oneself...whatever level that might be on, e.g. mental, emotional, spiritual, etc.

So off the top of my head, it could have something to do with seeing yourself (&/or other players around you, which I'm sure you know represent yourself anyway, and keeping in mind we're all linked in the greater picture) differently, and knowing that you may need to 'feed' yourself in various ways before you can either 'find' or rediscover or just BE yourself again in the future. And the "lost dog" could easily just be representing your feelings of being 'lost'. But, that's just MY impression and could be totally off-base.

I also can't believe your ex is going to England on YOUR dime!! May I say?.....what an A**!!! Talk about taking advantage!! UGH! NO integrity there!

And as I'm replying, I see you've now posted again today, so lemme read that through.....
QUOTE
I am not even really sure about the philosophy that we create our own lessons. What doesn't fit for me there is that we all have choice and those choices change. I have no control over another's choice.

Yah, I think I know what you're talking about with that one. It's another one of those paradoxes. Where do I leave off and 'another' begins? And how do our different vibrations mesh and produce whatever manifests? I wish I had THE ONE answer for you, but I don't, at least not yet. Having said that, I do believe we bring certain things at certain vibrations into our lives, at whatever level we're at. But there are certain parameters to how this actually works, in detail.

Having ALSO just seen Dr. Dyer's new film on Fri. (huh! wink.gif ), I recall he said he doesn't believe we call forth what we want but what we ARE (at any moment in time). I assume he's talking about our level of vibration and all that inherently entails. So I assume this is why so many 'lightworkers', in their various modalities, focus on going deeper into yourself, to discover WHY you're attracting what you are, or what an injury or illness is there for, what it's trying to tell you, what it needs to resolve, for your sake. We can only work on ourselves, first, and let that effect ripple outwards to the world around us.

But how exactly this translates into having relationships you don't want to be as they are.....well, I think it's quite complicated. But as I'd mentioned to you once before, as a possibility, perhaps you simply grew MUCH faster than these partners did, and so things HAD to shift......all, ultimately for your own highest good, even though you have to go through the horrible pain of their endings.

I dunno. Maybe this still makes no sense to you. I can only hope some part of it might, to help you get through it all. It still seems that many, many people have been going through all sorts of garbage heaps this last year. I could tell you stories just as bad, if not worse, than your own..... But in the end, so sadly, everyone still has to go through their own, with others trying to help as best they can. And I wish I could help even more, with those BIG answers.....I've asked myself many of the same questions you're asking yourself, but it's been a slow go through the years, so all I can leave you with for now are MORE BIG HUGS!!!

Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Furkidlets' Mom @ Jan 11 2009, 09:25 PM) *
How could someone ever forget those kinds of choices?! To trust (him) again, after that kind of behaviour and action would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible.


I could never trust him again. I don't even know who he is. Sadly I still remember what I "thought" he was and I have huge grief missing that person, even if he was actually a fictional character. This house is so full of "him" and I could barely stand it over the last couple of days, maybe this is coupled with January being a tough month anyway for lots of people.

I think what you said about ID makes that dream even more clear to me. I was looking at this "lost dog" - this man, x-h who everyone called a husky, but I could clearly see was a sheltie, a different and much smaller dog. What people were saying he was and what he actually was did not jive. Checking the ID, was about me trying to find out who he really was - wanting to look deeper into his soul. But I couldn't find out, because as Toonie said "he didn't want me to know his name". Maybe I was just there to feed him, or nurture him, but not to actually know him. I hope the credits also represents some kind of karmic credits to me for going through this... don't know how it all works but I sure hate to think this was all for nothing.

QUOTE
Having ALSO just seen Dr. Dyer's new film on Fri. (huh! wink.gif ), I recall he said he doesn't believe we call forth what we want but what we ARE (at any moment in time).



I guess what makes sense to me is that we also call forth what we are in relation to what others are. So if I am pushing for truth and pushing for growth, and "other" is not wanting to take responsibility then this would create a division between us. If I had accepted things as is, which would also reflect who I "was", then maybe there would be a different outcome. Or perhaps if the person I was had had the energy / ability to reach soul to soul with x-sd, who was the main conflict, then another outcome might have been possible. That makes me feel very sad. I really thought I had more time with her. Under the extreme duress of our life the last 3 years that would have been very difficult for me.

I really liked the film - what did you think? Wayne Dyer has such a nice energy and fully admits having been motivated by ego in his past. He really represents another role model for me of how I'd like to be in the world.

My biggest regret is that with all the grief and difficulties that I never got to spend time working on a relationship with x-sd. I know she didn't like me from day one, and x-h didn't support me in a parent role with her - kinda the reverse actually. He wanted her to tell me what to do and show me how to do things. So maybe it would have been impossible to achieve the relationship I wanted with her without his support. It's all the same "what ifs" that of course I'll never find out about now.

I do miss the man I thought x-h was, I truly miss this fictitious person, strange as it sounds, to the bottom of my soul. In the meantime he has demonstrated fully that he doesn't care (or maybe isn't capable of caring) about my well being one iota. So the reality and the illusion of a man who would have protected and cared for me do not match.

QUOTE
.....I've asked myself many of the same questions you're asking yourself, but it's been a slow go through the years, so all I can leave you with for now are MORE BIG HUGS!!!


Thanks for the hugs. I really feel alone here. I am finding it so isolated and quiet. At least I am finally able to get out more. I wish I could just beam myself into another life and another existence, full of peace and happiness. But here I am.

Jan.
Furkidlets' Mom
QUOTE
I don't even know who he is. Sadly I still remember what I "thought" he was and I have huge grief missing that person, even if he was actually a fictional character.
Yah, I know that feeling. It was the same with my own ex, who was, as I used to put it, fabulous when he was being 'good', and horrible when he was being 'bad'. I adored his 'good' side, and loathed his 'bad' side. And of course you don't know who he is - he never let you see who he really was....and I'll bet even he doesn't know who he really is, either. Or just can't admit to himself who he really is. (this is all on strictly a "personality/ego" level only, naturally)

QUOTE
...but I sure hate to think this was all for nothing.
As painful as so many things are in this life, I honestly don't think anything is ever for nothing. What things are for, however, can take quite awhile for us to see. And some things we may never really 'get.' But alot of it we do, if we're steadfast in looking.

But you couldn't have accepted things the way they were, and only on someone else's terms, I don't think.....at least not unless you'd already been far advanced enough to not be in ego most of the time.....a worthwhile goal but not where most people are as yet. So I wouldn't beat myself up over that aspect, if you can help it. Don't forget, part of our inner turmoil results from not accepting how and where we just ARE at present (or in the recent past).

You know, though....if, when you're feeling a bit more steady, you're still feeling badly about the step-daughter, there's always the option of writing her a letter, whether you ever actually send it to her or not. Even if you just get your frustrations and thoughts out on paper, that might help. Lots of people do this and then burn the letter, symbolically letting the matter go. (but if you send it, you'd best be diplomatic and not have resentments seething forth wink.gif ) It's good, regardless, that you're letting yourself experience more facets of your feelings about your relationship with her. You need to purge whatever you can, out, one way or another. So good for you!

QUOTE
I really liked the film - what did you think? Wayne Dyer has such a nice energy and fully admits having been motivated by ego in his past. He really represents another role model for me of how I'd like to be in the world.
I thought it was fairly good, but not great, even though I really like Dyer's works. I'm still trying to get a better SENSE of what it would really be like to just "let LIFE play YOU." *sigh* I think I have a long way to go yet to get to THAT mode of being! But I loved his St. Francis miracle story....and was VERY happy that it revolved around St. Francis himself! I also really liked that study with the lists/men's & women's values changing after a "quantum moment." But.....I'm just longing for that moment ITSELF! I seem to be hovering somewhere in the middle of the women's list, even w/o having had one yet. Strange.

QUOTE
I wish I could just beam myself into another life and another existence, full of peace and happiness. But here I am.
Yes, HERE YOU ARE, JUST THE WAY YOU ARE RIGHT NOW. That reminds me of the book, "Wherever You Go, There You Are," by Jon Kabat Zinn. And you know how 'they' all say that your life could BE full of that peace and happiness if you'll just CHOOSE that instead, right NOW.....but as with so many of these things, WAY easier said than done for most of us!

I know it must be SO hard to not have another to be with now, when you feel you need someone the most...just like it is when a loved one transitions. Divorce isn't that much different and often doesn't feel ANY different in some ways. Sometimes it's better to be alone with YOURSELF, though, because at least you know YOU'LL never leave yourself, while you can be in a whole group of people and still feel totally alone. Do you have any friends there who've offered to let you call them even if it's in the middle of the night? If you do, then take them up on that offer if you need to!

I'd like to write more, but my computer's really mucking up on me here and I need to get to bed pretty soon. Do me a favour, if you would, though - give yourself a little massage or loving strokes tonight before you go to sleep. You owe it to yourself to show yourself how lovable you always were and still are, and this honestly does manage to help with that. Night-night. Will chat later, Jan.......((((((hugs from a friend!!!!))))
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Furkidlets' Mom @ Jan 12 2009, 12:19 AM) *
But you couldn't have accepted things the way they were, and only on someone else's terms, I don't think.....at least not unless you'd already been far advanced enough to not be in ego most of the time.....a worthwhile goal but not where most people are as yet. So I wouldn't beat myself up over that aspect, if you can help it. Don't forget, part of our inner turmoil results from not accepting how and where we just ARE at present (or in the recent past).


I guess I also have to remember what x-h is showing me about himself also - such an ugly side of him. Would I ever want someone who could actually do what he's done to me? I *never* thought he was capable of being such an ugly human being. I you'd asked me in August, could x-h do this? Never! I thought at most we might need to have some space from each other and work on some issues. That he would choose his dead previous wife over me and let his daughter take over from where she left off - well the whole thing just seems so unbelievable... x-sd feels happy and in control right now, but I fear for her safety. I think the two of them are deeply insecure and the relationship is just not healthy, especially with what it had taught x-sd. I guess x-h's love for me was superficial right from the beginning. I was deceived.

QUOTE
You know, though....if, when you're feeling a bit more steady, you're still feeling badly about the step-daughter, there's always the option of writing her a letter, whether you ever actually send it to her or not.


I did this already. It was quite a long letter, telling her that I wished I'd had more time with her. I was going to give it to her, then spoke to the counsellor and decided against it. The counsellor pointed out that the letter could make her feel like she was in the middle or it could also be seen as me trying to manipulate things. So I didn't and guess I will never send it. I did give her a Christmas card saying that caring and wanting the “best” for someone doesn’t always come across in ways you might expect, and wishing her all the best in her new life with her dad. But in lots of ways she did manipulate things too - she worked and worked on her dad about leaving and then finally he did.

QUOTE
I'm still trying to get a better SENSE of what it would really be like to just "let LIFE play YOU." *sigh* I think I have a long way to go yet to get to THAT mode of being!


I'm not sure exactly what he meant there but I think it's about working with what "is", and being in touch with the soul rather than the ego. I think we have to start by knowing what we want...

>And you know how 'they' all say that your life could BE full of that peace and happiness if you'll just CHOOSE that instead, >right NOW.....but as with so many of these things, WAY easier said than done for most of us!

Yes, but also living in your head, or running away from difficult feelings instead of listening to heart leads to disconnection to the soul. So if the heart feels pain, it's important to let that move through. This is different than repeating something in your head over and over again to cause more pain. It's just accepting the pain of loss. It's important to know the difference between avoiding pain, and feeling peace. True peace comes from true honesty, and true honesty comes from acceptance of all the feelings within.


>I know it must be SO hard to not have another to be with now, when you feel you need someone the most...just like it is >when a loved one transitions. Divorce isn't that much different and often doesn't feel ANY different in some ways. >Sometimes it's better to be alone with YOURSELF, though, because at least you know YOU'LL never leave yourself, while >you can be in a whole group of people and still feel totally alone. Do you have any friends there who've offered to let >you .call them even if it's in the middle of the night? If you do, then take them up on that offer if you need to!

I have been on the phone a lot with friends. People haven't been able to come here because of the snow and the lack of parking and lack of a driveway. But it is just starting to melt now. Weird but last night I dreamed that x-h was ignoring me as I trudged through the snow. I kept saying I hate you over and over (that wounded child in me again). Then somehow I was in x-h's new home with x-sd. Both ignored me and carried on. I said some things to him, can't remember what, but they were hurt and angry. The last thing I said was "You're probably going to die."

Sure don't know what that means but it's occurred to me that that's where x-h is headed. I just don't know.

>Do me a favour, if you would, though - give yourself a little massage or loving strokes tonight before you go to sleep. You >owe it to yourself to show yourself how lovable you always were and still are, and this honestly does manage to help with >that. Night-night. Will chat later, Jan.......((((((hugs from a friend!!!!)))

Yes, someone once told me that when you are feeling really alone, you can give yourself a hug. My little Asha baby girl comes to me when I'm upset (which is lots lately) and does her little clown act and snuggles in really hard. She is so sweet - I'm sure Merlin sent her to me, since she has his "M' stamped on her white forehead - with the two peaks.

I hope I will have healing dreams tonight and wishing the same to all who is reading this.

good night.

Jan.
Zita'sMom
I was just thinking about this idea of grief and how I don't want to add to it by "horror" thoughts and yet how I don't want to deny grief either, since denying it, or burying it doesn't allow it to move through.

I looked up Eckhart Tolle and grief and found this Q&A. Hope it helps someone else also. I think what it teaches me is that acceptance is purely acceptance of what "is" however that feels. Acceptance seems to be about allowing life in it's fullest and not creating more misery or wanting to make something what it isn't. It is living fully in the moment without our thoughts controlling the outcome... something like that anyway. Here it is...

Question:
It is grief I would like you to talk on some more. I have “Even the Sun Will Die” and get it about form, just having lost 3 family members. Even when watching my mind, and feeling some peace, tears just come like a tidal wave. Then there is a hole, I sit with it, but all the spiritual teaching in the world does not seem to allow relief from grief. It is as if as a human form you have only one way and that is through; I noticed feelings of guilt for the feelings, but even surrender doesn’t seem to help... for want of trying to communicate my question much is lost... Grief seems separate to me, from all other emotions we experience and can have some effect on anger, self pity ect.?
.
Answer:
If you surrender to what you are feeling (and not feed the feeling with your thoughts, with stories), grief will burn up the ego and then show you its other face, which is peace or even joy. Joy is the dynamic aspect of peace. But don’t expect to obtain anything through surrender.
You say, “even surrender doesn’t seem to help”. As long as surrender is a means to an end (help, relief etc.), it is not complete surrender. There is an expectation. In true surrender, you ask for nothing, expect nothing. You simply embrace what is. Another way of putting it: you suffer consciously. Blessings on your journey.

Zita'sMom
Another link to Eckart Tolle on the "pain body"

http://www.spinninglobe.net/chapter2now.htm

Q. The present moment is sometimes unacceptable, unpleasant, or awful.

A. It is as it is. Observe how the mind labels it and how this labeling process, this continuous sitting in judgment, creates pain and unhappiness. By watching the mechanics of the mind, you step out of its resistance patterns, and you can then allow the present moment to be. This will give you a taste of the state of inner freedom from external conditions, the state of true inner peace. Then see what happens, and take action if necessary or possible.

Accept - then act. Whatever the present moment contains, accept it as if you had chosen it. Always work with it, not against it. Make it your friend and ally, not your enemy. This will miraculously transform your whole life.
****



It seems that the key to moving through pain is acceptance and surrender to "what is", and not judging or creating more from it.
Here is another quote from Tolle:

"Sustained conscious attention severs the link between the pain-body and your thought processes and brings about the process of transmutation. It is as if the pain becomes fuel for the flame of your consciousness, which then burns more brightly as a result. This is the esoteric meaning of the ancient art of alchemy the transmutation of base metal into gold, of suffering into consciousness. The split within is healed, and you become whole again. Your responsibility then is not to create further pain."

Maybe this is what Kahlil Gibran is talking about when he says joy and pain are inseparable.


**********



toonie
wow Jan what a fascinating couple of threads you brought us here, what growth you are going through, thanks so much, just too overwhelmed to comment for now but thanks for feeding our souls with this
Furkidlets' Mom
QUOTE
If you surrender to what you are feeling (and not feed the feeling with your thoughts, with stories), grief will burn up the ego and then show you its other face, which is peace or even joy. Joy is the dynamic aspect of peace. But don’t expect to obtain anything through surrender.
You say, “even surrender doesn’t seem to help”. As long as surrender is a means to an end (help, relief etc.), it is not complete surrender. There is an expectation. In true surrender, you ask for nothing, expect nothing. You simply embrace what is. Another way of putting it: you suffer consciously.


I remember reading most of these Tolle teachings at some point, and had also begun reading/rereading his last 2 books last spring, trying to glean some answers for my own pain. (don't really like his description of the "pain-body" as an actual entity, though; gives me the creeps and increases my fear! ph34r.gif ) Never finished them, as I find his writing quite 'dry' and I also keep wondering if he'd say anything different if HE lost a child himself.....waiting on that book, by ANY of these teachers. I also remember intuitively doing this, at least to some degree, when I was grieving about Sabin years ago, before I even knew about any such teachings. And it did help some.....watching myself from within, sitting in my grief feelings, and allowing them to be as they were. That process came about from my anger and frustration with society's non-acceptance of my grief. I got fed up with their resistance and decided to allow myself to feel whatever the heck I was gonna feel, darn it, for as LONG as I was going to feel it, and to heck with everyone else! This is also why I say it's NOT "selfish" to grieve. It is simply necessary (and healthier) to go through the process.

However, I still find it awfully difficult many times to not marry thoughts/thinking with the feelings, as they're so intertwined with each other, and that's where I'd get stuck or lost with his teachings. But I also think what Tolle says is likely pretty much the same thing that Dyer promotes, i.e. about letting life play you, or 'going with the flow' of what is.

On the other hand, a heck of a lot of people DO find relief, and usually permanent relief, in such practices as EFT, TAT, SRT, etc., where you, granted, DO allow acceptance of yourself and your feelings and even sit in them a bit, but the AIM of these therapies is still to find relief, so they are still a means to an end. They seem to work well, too, even though in that sense they fly in the face of that one part of Tolle's teachings. For example, EFT uses the "acceptance" statement of "Even though....(whatever the problem is).....I deeply and completely love and accept myself," but you still KNOW that its aim is to relieve the 'problem'.

And as I'm sure you're aware of, this is a rather opposite approach to the human condition than, say, the Abraham/Hicks, Hathors, Kryon, etc. approaches/advice.

Another approach that many healers are now taking is to work from within the BODY instead, where you end up being able to sort of circu*mnavigate within yet around your "stories" and get more directly to the feelings (or the physical maladies), the reason they're there, and therefore beyond them and into healing on a cellular level (which of course encompasses your wholeness - mind, body, spirit).

And another thing I puzzle over with Tolle's approach is that many other teachers believe that the mind, and even the ego, are NOT our 'enemies', per se, to peace, as some seem to espouse, but are also, inclusively and equally as God-given as anything else we're endowed with, and serve specific purposes - we're just using them wrongly, erroneously or...hmmm...whatever term you could possibly apply if there is zero "judgment" about anything! wink.gif

Then my head starts to hurt from all the puzzling over which one to practice with! rolleyes.gif However, these kinds of teachings are also why I often say it's productive to just allow your feelings of grief, even IF you're ultimately or eventually wanting to find some relief from them.

Another way to enter into something closer to real surrender is to try asking yourself......can I accept or give myself permission to allow, for now, the possibility that I'll ALWAYS feel as I do right now? That way, even if you are, deep down, wanting to keep the pain on some level, at the same time you're also accepting that you're wanting that, instead of continually fighting yourself.

As always and with anything, there are many paths, all of which can lead to fullness or wholeness or whatever you want to call it, but we each have to find the one, or ones, that work for US at any given time. And ironically, sometimes, when I'm even fatigued with searching and sifting through the whole morass of approaches, that's when I find some nuggets of healing, or just being.

But I always find it terribly ironic that in order to get beyond using the mind alone or too much, we have to use our minds to think about and collate all these ideas FIRST! (another reason I don't see the mind as something to totally 'get over' or reject out of hand)
Furkidlets' Mom
QUOTE
I'm sure Merlin sent her to me, since she has his "M' stamped on her white forehead - with the two peaks.

I'd meant to comment on this, too.......or is it MORE than this? You might want to take a peek at these 2 sites:
I'm Home; A Dog's Never Ending Love Story and Pet Past Lives & Reincarnation - Brent Atwater's blog

I just met with a healer colleague yesterday who told me all about her recent experiences between her and her "spirit & soul" cat whom she'd just had to euthanise not long ago. (and oh, were they ever WILD!) She's either got him back already, OR she thinks it may instead be her cat's Twin Flame, come to be in place already FOR her cat (to reunite with, as well as with her) when HE reincarnates back to her w/i a few months....as he'd said he was going to do.

Once she became privy to the soul-level information/experience from and with her cat (when he was on his way to dying, and brought about by the type of healing modality she and I do now), she was then even able to feel that this cat had been with her several times already in this lifetime....and that these cycles together would NEVER be ending. wub.gif
Bubba
Jan---------

Tolle, Dyer, 'Deep Pockets' Chopra et al........all regurgitators of re-packaged Eastern thought.I have been reading this imported pyschobabble since the 70's.
The only western thinker I have come across who has really lived what he preaches is Ram Dass.

Get a copy of his lecture of "Seasons of Our Lives" (1980's)---------Cuts to the chase and will save you LOTSSSSSS of money........

The current writers are wannabes of Ram Dass and want to seperate you from your money.......Ram Dass has given away all his money that he made through the years via books,lectures and tapes and now he is handicapped because of a stroke and lives modestly in Hawaii through donations and volunteer aides.

Google him at youtube to see and hear his history.............This lecture "The Seasons of Our Lives" ..........Kept me from commiting suicide when I was in DEEP personal turmoil 25 years ago while a student in Boston.............I AM NOT KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TRUST ME................


I KNOW THE KIND OF SHI* YOU ARE IN AT THE MOMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



My favorite pyschobabble line I read in the early 70's,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,OVER&%^YSIS LEADS TO PARALYSIS!!!!!!!!!!

Bubba........................

The censors got me in the above sentence, I will re-spell it Phoenetically-------- O-VUR-AH-NAL-IH-SIS
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Furkidlets' Mom @ Jan 13 2009, 12:19 PM) *
But I always find it terribly ironic that in order to get beyond using the mind alone or too much, we have to use our minds to think about and collate all these ideas FIRST! (another reason I don't see the mind as something to totally 'get over' or reject out of hand)


Hi F's Mom

Here is another quote I found from Kahlil Gibran:

"Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.' "

Tolle's quotes strike a chord for me because it is about acceptance of "what is". If I allow the shoulda, coulda, woulda stuff to run over and over in my head it creates more pain. The less I think about those things I have no control over, the less pain I create for myself. I don't believe there is "right" and "wrong". Even the idea of "karma" is sometimes used to judge people. It's just cause and effect, and maybe life lessons. Regardless of why things happen, we are where we are. If we consciously accept pain, rather than fight it, or deny it, or "medicate it", it seems to flow more easily and create room for other feelings like love and joy.

I love the idea that this acceptance could actually create a sense of peace... I have not experienced this myself yet, but I have heard of this not just from Tolle, but also from Gordon Smith, who is one of my great role models.

Gordon Smith had one of those epiphony moments of feeling complete oneness with everything during a time of intense pain. He is an amazing psychic and medium but he said this experience was more miraculous than anything else he'd experienced in his life.

I think it also has to do with that deep soul connection where we stay connected to our purpose rather than staying in our heads, but not connecting to our hearts...

Jan.
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Furkidlets' Mom @ Jan 13 2009, 01:03 PM) *
I'd meant to comment on this, too.......or is it MORE than this? You might want to take a peek at these 2 sites:
I'm Home; A Dog's Never Ending Love Story and Pet Past Lives & Reincarnation - Brent Atwater's blog


That's neat the dog had a "B" monogrammed on its hip!

I know Asha isn't Merlin, but I had a couple of interesting experiences that make me feeling Merlin "met" Asha.

One was a very vivid dream. I saw Merlin, could smell him touch him, feel him and I turned to tell H who said he'd had the same experience with his previous wife. (which he had told me he had experienced one time) When I turned around Merline was gone, but Asha was in his place.

Then a woman is who a medium was doing a demonstration and I got called up to the front. She said she saw a new young dog in my life, a "puppy". Asha is very puppy like and is totally the baby of all my dogs. She said that she saw her piddling on the floor. Because Asha is very fearful of strangers, she will sometimes do that if she gets scared of someone new. She then said there was another dog with the letter M that was Asha's "mentor" of sorts. It took a minute before I realized that what she was saying fit exactly with my dream.

Jan.
Bubba
BOTTOM LINE.................

The pain dosen't end till we do................Sorry..........

We are all in this together.........
Bubba...............
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 13 2009, 02:16 PM) *
My favorite pyschobabble line I read in the early 70's,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,OVER&%^YSIS LEADS TO PARALYSIS!!!!!!!!!!



Hi Bubba - a friend of mine were talking about some of the popular new age philosophers, especially those who talk about abundance, and laughed that if we just came up with the same best selling books, we'd be where they were!

Actually it's funny but I read Wayne Dyer's first two books and liked them (years ago) then after that they were not so much of interest to me. It's interesting that in his new film he talks about that time period as being quite caught up in his own ego, so it's interesting that's exactly when I stopped reading his stuff. But I do like his current film.

I see truth in what Tolle says in those quotes. Worded simply it is acceptance vs resistance. For example, I make my pain worse if I were to think certain non-productive thoughts like thinking "hmmm wonder what x-h and x-sd are doing today" or with Ziggy, I sometimes relive the moment of her death in my head which is very, very painful. Or I imagine Zita's demise in all sorts of damaging and horrible ways. Sometimes those thoughts come up randomly, then I just have to let them move through, but if I unconsciously play those "videos" or what he calls "stories" over and over in my head, well I think I would just go insane.

I am trying to find ways of feeling, consciously, whatever comes up, instead of playing hurtful damaging tapes in my head that only do more damage. It doesn't mean those hurtful images don't come up, but that whatever pain I feel, if I just allow it, I think that will help it to flow through.

It gives me hope to think that the pain has a purpose and can "transmute" to peace and wholeness. That is my goal.

I'll let you know how it goes. wink.gif

Jan.
Bubba
Ahem--------Never forget Ziggy or Zita.........Save for a few exceptional humans in our lives................Screw the rest of em!!!!!!!!........OTHER HUMANS ARE NOT GODS AND ARE JUST AS UNIMPORTANT AS WE ARE!!!!!!!


Ya wanna know the meaning of life? simple..........:

There is no meaning!!!!!!!!!!

Your born........you live..........you work..............you die..........buh bye.........

It 's just grist for the mill.............take care of number 1...........You..........NOBODY ELSE WILL..........
Bubba..........

Most people are LIARS!!!!!!!!!!! I have lived and worked ALL over the world and no matter what people look like or sound like it is ALL THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Make your own self-esteem.It cannot be purchased at Borders books..............
Furkidlets' Mom
Bubba,

I like Ram Dass, too, over some others, but I also like Chopra, who is, after all, Eastern himself in his roots. I don't think he, at any rate, is really trying to deceive anybody, but is, as he's been 'hailed', just trying to interpret for us more 'modern-day' folks, the older philosophies that he believes in, and is also coupling them with the newer quantum sciences, which helps many folks like me. In fact, that's something I've been waiting to see ever since I was a kid and instinctively just KNEW that somehow, some way, one day science would be able to be married with spirituality and it would all make more sense. (but we're not done with this, and likely will never really be, even in the other realms, as change/movement is part of the Universe, always)

What do you think of Paramhansa Yogananda? (Autobiography of a Yogi)

I also don't begrudge anyone making a living out of such pursuits. It is, after all, up to us as to whether or not we spend our own money on whatever, including (or not) current, mainstream professionals and their goods. Many of our beliefs about money are also, by themselves, the proverbial "root of all evil," and need to change as well. These other kinds of things are less negative in my mind than making one's money pillaging the earth, to which we're also totally connected & depend upon for earthly life. wink.gif Hey, if someone wanted to pay ME to blather on about whatever, I'd just accept that with glee! happy.gif

I'll have to check out the particular Ram Dass book (and lecture) you recommended, as I haven't read an awful lot of his stuff. (one book, forget the ti*tle now, was so incomprehensible to me, I gave it away)

There's a line in A Course In Miracles that you might really like - "You need do nothing." In many ways, I think that may be the best advice of all, IF you can manage it. It would be wonderful to not feel the urge to have to keep searching.....

Jan,

Loved your accounts of things that happened around Merlin! It's all these little pieces of what Jennifer McLaine calls our lives as "big, juicy adventures" that enrich and support us even as we move through pain. She also has a saying that I think helps at times. When something, anything upsetting occurs (although she DID allow that physical death of a loved one was a real 'toughie' to apply her methodologies to too soon), she's now fond of saying "Well...that's interesting." This helps to remove some of the usual judgments we apply to things. (she's also had a heckuva hard history, or "story", so I find her more believable than some)

And yes, similarly to you and your friend, as we were watching Wayne's movie, me and the H were also chuckling to each other about things like.....why did he have to make this movie anyway? Is he running out of money at his home in Maui or something? Sometimes you just have to chuckle wryly about things.

I think you've got a very good handle on how to work with your feelings, btw!
Bubba
Furkidlets Mom--------The Course in Miracles line is the home run:At some point we must live.
You are right Chopra is From the East.Perfect marketing.People in the West love this stuff.......

I do not in any way at all mean to be direspectful but people in my age group (baby boomers) need to,after all these years of trying to 'find 'the answer from other humans, stand up,shake off the dust, quit being victims, TURN OFF OPRAH, and think for themselves.

TIME IS SHORT...........PAIN IS PART OF THE PROGRAM..........

I still miss my boy Willy like you can't believe and am in Hell everyday..........If my wife dies before me I will REALLY REALLY be in Hell everyday.........

There is nothing to be done about it.............It comes and goes...........

I have not read the autobiography you mentioned but will google it and order a copy.

One of the simplest books I ever read as a kid was Siddhartha.A great primer for all things Eastern.................As we GRIND on....

Peace, Bubba...............
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 13 2009, 03:15 PM) *
Ahem--------Never forget Ziggy or Zita.........Save for a few exceptional humans in our lives................Screw the rest of em!!!!!!!!........OTHER HUMANS ARE NOT GODS AND ARE JUST AS UNIMPORTANT AS WE ARE!!!!!!!

Ya wanna know the meaning of life? simple..........:

There is no meaning!!!!!!!!!!


But, Bubba, we can make meaning... if we want to. And I want to. smile.gif

I luv ya Bubba, and I relate to the feeling about humans - look who I ended up attached to after all? A guy who threw me away like trash! But I realize in painful times of my past there was also learning and progression that took place. You know that song? "We're here for a good time, not a long time." Actually Bubba, here's the song, dedicated to you and your good old spirit boy Willy! And you can sing along, lyrics included!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qFIaI1M5kU


QUOTE
Make your own self-esteem.It cannot be purchased at Borders books..............


I totally agree - but, also don't discount all those books.... I say read the books, or don't, but stay open - and then decide what feels right to you.

Jan.
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Furkidlets' Mom @ Jan 13 2009, 03:29 PM) *
Jan,

Loved your accounts of things that happened around Merlin! It's all these little pieces of what Jennifer McLaine calls our lives as "big, juicy adventures" that enrich and support us even as we move through pain. She also has a saying that I think helps at times. When something, anything upsetting occurs (although she DID allow that physical death of a loved one was a real 'toughie' to apply her methodologies to too soon), she's now fond of saying "Well...that's interesting." This helps to remove some of the usual judgments we apply to things. (she's also had a heckuva hard history, or "story", so I find her more believable than some) ...

I think you've got a very good handle on how to work with your feelings, btw!


Thanks - I'm working on it, quite intensely actually!!

Non-judgment, that's another concept that fits with "acceptance". For example, if I think I am bad for feeling pain, or start feeling "guilty" for my thoughts... well that doesn't help either. I think what's hard for people going through grief is when some people judge your pain instead of supporting or empathizing. I'm just trying not to think all those "terror" thoughts that make everything even worse.

On the other hand we can't just be "shiny, happy people" the way some books make out, and I think that's what Bubba is getting at. Although I'd sure like to be laughing and finding joy a lot more in my life... so I have to think that's still to come!

take care

Jan
Bubba
Yep----------Good tune and to the point............Be leery of the snakeoil salesmen.They have traded their horse drawn medicine shows for book-bulging coffee shops and the internet.Pseudo intellectuals prey on the hurting.Theories weaved of whole-cloth abound.Discernment and cynicism are your TRUE friends..........
Bubba................
Furkidlets' Mom
"People in the West love this stuff......." Well, yes, often in large part because 'western' religions &/or philosophies haven't served them well enough and there's a dire need at one point or another for something that does.

"...after all these years of trying to 'find 'the answer from other humans...and think for themselves." Yep, and learn how to go into yourself to find what answers you need. Having said that, though, most of these authors/teachers do say, too, that it's all already within YOU, and you don't REALLY need them. It's all part of discerning what works for you, and what doesn't. You know...the ol' AA mantra of "take what you like and leave the rest." And of course, a LOT of people have never even had any exposure to non-status-quo type thinking or works, so they gotta start somewhere.

Like many, I'm mainly just trying to find a way to MINIMIZE the amount of pain, not eliminate it. Even Buddha couldn't eliminate it all. And if we did, we wouldn't have that duality as contrast...a whole other topic!

"I still miss my boy Willy like you can't believe and am in Hell everyday..........If my wife dies before me I will REALLY REALLY be in Hell everyday." Agreed.....unless the universe has something even better in store for me than I can even imagine today! I'll allow for that possibility.

"I have not read the autobiography you mentioned but will google it and order a copy." Looks like you can now read it online, for free. Even better!

I like Siddhartha quotes, too. And now, I "need do".....some work around here! (you two could keep me here aaaaaaaalllll day! tongue.gif )
Bubba
Hey you 2---------You know I think women (such as yourselves) with big brains are much more attractive than.....Well you guys finish the sentence...........

I gotta go to work know and make some noise on the drums.............Time to 'clock'in ..........................

Online eh?? Cool........will do that tonite.........

Jan and FK's Mom-----------------Have a great day you guys,

Your cranky old forum pal,
Bubba.................................

P.S.----------Yep A.A. is a very deep program---------I still go to meetings around the holidays for my annual 'tune up'.......................
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 13 2009, 05:08 PM) *
Hey you 2---------You know I think women (such as yourselves) with big brains are much more attractive than.....Well you guys finish the sentence...........

I gotta go to work know and make some noise on the drums.............Time to 'clock'in ..........................

Online eh?? Cool........will do that tonite.........

Jan and FK's Mom-----------------Have a great day you guys,

Your cranky old forum pal,
Bubba.................................


Awww thanks Bubba. That brightened my day.

And I don't think you're cranky, you're just being real...

Jan.
Zita'sMom
And actually Bubba maybe Tolle's methods do work. This evening I was at a class and it actually struck me as really funny how x-h didn't just leave me, he ran for his *life* from me... Now why that is funny I don't know, but if you saw me in person, I'm really not so threatening, or at least I didn't *think* so.... mad.gif wink.gif

But I'm pretty sure it's the first time I've really laughed about it.

Jan.
Bubba
Hey Jan--------Isn't it cool how we read so much material over time and sometimes we think that we are reading the same stuff over and over again and then..........boom !!!! something clicks and we say 'AHA"!!!!!!!!! there it is in living color.That's the payoff to all the studying.That 'Power of Now' thing becomes so real and you realize that all we really have is Now.Everything else is between our ears.I have read so many of these type books that I just have to live and see what takes place.But it is easy to forget things and an occasional review does do me good.To remember to put the methods into actual practice.Sounds like your turning the page.Keep up the good work kiddo!!!!!!!!!!
Bubba.................
Zita'sMom
QUOTE (Bubba @ Jan 14 2009, 03:45 AM) *
Hey Jan--------Isn't it cool how we read so much material over time and sometimes we think that we are reading the same stuff over and over again and then..........boom !!!! something clicks and we say 'AHA"!!!!!!!!! there it is in living color.That's the payoff to all the studying.That 'Power of Now' thing becomes so real and you realize that all we really have is Now.Everything else is between our ears.I have read so many of these type books that I just have to live and see what takes place.But it is easy to forget things and an occasional review does do me good.To remember to put the methods into actual practice.Sounds like your turning the page.Keep up the good work kiddo!!!!!!!!!!
Bubba.................


Thanks Bubba

The hardest part for me is that x-h and I did all the same things. We liked the same activities and when I go now there is always that thing that I may bump into him. I still can't believe he turned on me the way he did... how could anyone do that to someone they (even once) loved? I wonder, did I marry an alien in a human body? How did he know to trick me so well to think he really cared? Even the day before he announced in that counselling session that I was the reason for everything bad in his life, he was calling me to meet up and get groceries together. I don't get it. I have never heard of this kind of 'nurture you' one day then "drop you like a hot potato" the next.

And that weird thing he did - "choosing" between me and his daughter (maybe on behalf of his dead wife?)- how terribly destructive ... and if this were the choice for him couldn't he have thought about this before deciding to marry me? So many questions. As time goes I hope it will just be like a funny line in a book. "I terrified a grown man so much that he ran fleeing for his life." Well I'm sure there are funnier lines than that but there must be some other way to see it.

Someone said to me yesterday that my pain over Ziggy was maybe that I didn't "fully" believe she is well and alive in the spirit world. It's not that I don't believe she is alive and well, and I've even seen glimpses (and a very 3D one of Zita) of them. It's that I haven't had the sort of dream or experience where I really touch and contact them to connect deeply, like we did here on earth. I have had lots of dreams with my dog Merlin where the contact was very real, but not with Zita or Ziggy. I would like to have a conversation with them or with someone who was with them. I will keep putting that thought out there and perhaps one day it will happen.

I have to believe there is joy and happiness still in the future for me, otherwise I would not find a reason to carry on. I do believe there is a state of mind in suffering where people become almost separate from themselves - the silent observer maybe. I think it has to do with the connectedness of everything (or God, if you'd rather call it that). I think if you can tap into the "connectedness" the pain seems more distant or less relevent maybe.

You said something stopped you from committing suicide years ago? What exactly were the concepts that helped you with that decision? (Just curious, not contemplating suicide.)

Jan.
Zita'sMom
Here is a sympathy letter from Ram Dass for a couple whose daughter was murdered.

I think it is quite similar to what Tolle said.

Here's the link:

http://www.kotapress.com/section_articles/...hel_ramDass.htm
Zita'sMom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV9cXKHkX34

Here is an interview with Ram Dass on suffering.

If you don't want to actually watch the whole thing, I would just like to share the last line.

Perhaps it needs to be my mantra.

"Suffering brings me very close to God."

Toonie, are you there? Thoughts?

Jan.
Bubba
Jan---

The pain is too difficult to revisit.Very very complex.However,I can say that had I not suffered to a place of suicide I would have never come to the realization that this life is not a result of chaotic chance but of a design of a higher plan that I can never really know until I am supposed to know.I can't say I know God or that He speaks to me.Suicide would obviously cancel any chance of completing my job here on earth and would forever void the opportunity to finally be one with Him...........Ram Dass provided me with the tools to live in this evolving model.I love him and He saved my life.............Thank you for the vid and the letter...........
Bubba....................
Furkidlets' Mom
Jan,

A few thoughts....

Do you think it's possible there may be something else at work with ex-h? Like maybe drugs or something? Or even some dis-ease, like adult-onset schizophrenia? Just some possibilities I'd thought of.

And if not, I keep recalling all the posts I've read on another grief site that deal with people losing their spouses to death and the 'number' it does on them, just as it does on us, but with its own particular set of different challenges. Some of them have started da*ting (can't believe the censors voided THAT innocuous term!) too soon (they discover for themselves later), some have remarried and it's all fallen apart not long afterward. I remember one older woman who'd lost her H, dated and then remarried a good friend who'd also lost his spouse (they all knew each other, as two couples)....and then he ended up cheating on her with a younger woman! So maybe it's possible that ex-h really wasn't ready to recommit but didn't even know it....even more possible if he's the type to stuff feelings down in the first place. I can't remember now how long it had been for him after his previous wife had died before marrying you, but maybe he wasn't at all prepared, hadn't done his grief work well enough, etc., and so really couldn't handle anything challenging in a new relationship. Maybe it was a terribly simplistic dream he held in his head, about remarrying and everything being hunky-dory and 'saving' him from his grief. This kind of thing might explain his rather 'split personality'-type responses to all sorts of things. If you think this is a possibility, perhaps you might find some helpful perspectives from those who've lost spouses to death?

I haven't had a chance to listen to Ram Dass there, but did read his letter, and I'll tell you, if anyone had written a letter like that to ME, I'd wash and then kiss their feet! How validating is THAT of our feelings?! And yes, it does sound very like in our suffering, is also our joy type of idea. I've just never understood what the key difference is in the proverbial "hitting bottom" and the mind-screeching pain & physically-feeling-heart-searing I'VE felt at the loss of each of my kidlets, and "hitting bottom", that I didn't miraculously have that connection to All suddenly open up to ME. It's sure FELT like I've "hit bottom", several times! So, how to access this if pain such as that doesn't automatically do it for you? Another mystery.....

QUOTE
It's that I haven't had the sort of dream or experience where I really touch and contact them to connect deeply, like we did here on earth.
Same here, in the difference between Sabin's contacts and Nissa's.....and it really hurts. I'm in the middle of reading (finally) "Hello From Heaven" by the Guggenheims and admit to feeling on one hand, comforted, but on the other, larger hand, hurt and frustrated. I still feel like I not only want, but NEED that full-blown type of ADC from my girl, and yet it's been closer now to 2.5 yrs. and nada that way. And just as all the folks in the book say, it's being enveloped in those peaceful feelings that accompany such visits, whether in "dreamtime" or in a waking state (even better!, I say), that really helps them carry on with more peace and assurance in their hearts, because they've FELT it first-hand....just as it helped me that way with some of Sabin's visits. (had you posted before about this 3D visit from Zita? I forget now)

QUOTE
the silent observer maybe. I think it has to do with the connectedness of everything (or God, if you'd rather call it that). I think if you can tap into the "connectedness" the pain seems more distant or less relevent maybe.
That's what I've found, when I've been lucky enough to actually experience what concurrently being the "silent witness/observer" is like. It's only happened for very short bursts of time, like a few seconds here and there, but the effect I've noticed is that those moments seem to sort of take the edge off pain. So I can imagine that if one were able to sit in that longer, much pain might just naturally soften or even leave for good. Don't know how this really works, but that was its natural effect, regardless.

Bubba,
QUOTE
Suicide would obviously cancel any chance of completing my job here on earth and would forever void the opportunity to finally be one with Him
(emphasis mine) While my comment certainly isn't a promotion for killing oneself, I actually don't believe in that idea...that you're utterly doomed if you suicide. I believe you still "go into the light" and are helped by other most-loving souls there, but that you still have to work through whatever brought you to that point, so more accurately, YOU are still the one creating your suffering, even in the spirit realms. So it might take you longer (but if there's no real time there, what does that matter?) to feel more like One, you'd still always have the chance to 'get there'. In "Hello From Heaven", just as in many other books of that nature, there are accounts of people being visited by those who 'killed' themselves.....and yet, they, too, are still alive and okay in those other realms, and surrounded by love. To my mind, a Source that is imbued with real love (and where else would WE get that from if our Source didn't originally have it in spades?) is not punishing or denying or not all-inclusive, as that is not love. Think about it.....if you could not have been coerced into punishing or otherwise deliberately harming or otherwise denying your beloved Willy of love, how could the Creator of All ever 'embody' something so opposite to LOVE itself? Logically and rationally impossible, I say. And that's just my (lower-vibration) HEAD speaking, never mind what my (closer-to-Source) HEART says.

Oh, and btw, thanks from me, too, for such a nice compliment to us about our "big brains"! happy.gif It's always nice to have that appreciated.....especially by a guy! laugh.gif
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