Hi, Donna, steroid injections can be brutal. You might want to try to place a cold pack on the injection site to help reduce the swelling, providing of course you can get him to lay down on his opposite side and be still long enough to hold the cold pack on for a few minutes. Doing the massage therapy will also help to release good endorphins into his brain and hopefully help to reduce the pain and discomfort he's feeling. I don't blame you one little bit for giving him a pain pill. Sometimes you have to do the least desirable to restore some balance again.

Although you are physically alone there with Buck because your husband is working today, please know you are not alone in spirit, although I realize that isn't always comforting. Thank you so much for sharing with us about how you and Buck are doing. I know this is a very difficult time for you, Donna. It is normal for you to feel like everything is crashing down around you. I hope you can feel me reaching out to you across the miles holding your hand and standing beside you through this difficult time.

Donna, I hope the idea of trying a cold pack is helpful to you and Buck. Please know you both are close in my thoughts and prayers, and I will look forward to hearing how things are going.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Thank you so much, Moonbeam. I'm crying too much right now to write anything else. Forgive me.
-Donna

Dear Donna, let the tears flow, my friend. I'm here with you, and Buck, and I'll be here for you when you feel up to writing, okay? I'm handing you some tissues now. Go ahead and put your head on my shoulder and let it out.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Donna--

I can feel Moon_Beam right there next to you, can't you? And you couldn't ask for a more compassionate and caring friend! She's been AMAZINGLY kind to me!

I am so sorry that you are having to deal with all of this with poor Buck. But yes, I agree with Moon Beam--steroid shots can really wreak havoc on the body, cause big swelling and a lot of pain. I've been lucky the few times I've had them, but friends of mine have not been so lucky. So if you can get the swelling down somehow...

I'm with you on this journey too, painful as it is. I'm tracking every post you write and caring a great deal about Buck and his health. So cry on my shoulder too--I'm here!

Big hugs from Margi and the Wonderwolf

Ladies, thank you so very much! I could feel you with me. Y'all are more help to me than you'll ever know. I don't know why I was having such a bad day.
Buck is feeling better with his leg. He is at least able to walk on it. The pain pill seemed to really help but I haven't given him another yet. I will wait until I know for sure that he needs it.
I hope everyone has a good memorial day.
-Donna

Donna--

I think that you were having such a bad day because Buck was having such a bad day. No mystery there. I'm glad to hear that Buck is moving around more easily--probably the pain from the injection is finally wearing off. Is it less swollen now too?

It's amazing how the support we give and receive here really IS real. It just has to span a bunch of miles, but that's not so hard. Not with people posting pretty constantly, making us aware of their presence and their comfort and their needs. My friends around here are supportive too, but not like this group of wonderful people is. I'd be happy to talk on the phone too, but all I have is a little expensive pre-paid cell. Donna, do you have Skype on your computer? If you do, and you feel like it, we could talk for free through Skype. That goes for anyone here who has Skype and wants to talk. Now that I'm unemployed, I have nothing BUT time on my hands, and I love to talk! (Skype is a totally free service that lets you talk through the computer to anyone around the world.)

I hope that you and Buck have a great day!

Hugs from Margi and Ladywolf

Hi, Donna, I am so o o o glad to log on to find your post that Buck seems to be doing better, which means that you are doing better, too. When our furkids are hurting we hurt, too, and it is more worrisome because, unlike older human children and adults, they can't tell us what is wrong or where it hurts, although this time with Buck it was pretty obvious it was his leg.

I hope this day will be a peaceful respite for you and Buck and all of your family so that you will be able to enjoy it, too. Donna, please know you and Buck are in my thoughts and prayers, and I will look forward to knowing how things are going as you feel up to writing.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Hi Margi and Moonbeam. Thank you for your replies. Margi, I don't have skype. I've heard of it but don't know anything about it. I'm guessing you have to have a camera on your computer? I don't have one. I'll have to look into that. It would be fun to see my mom when I'm talking to her.
Anyway, Buck is holding on. The vet called me this morning first thing to ask about the swelling & pain from the injection because he saw the note in Buck's chart. He didn't seem very happy about it. It concerned me. He said he will give Buck any future injections himself. I'm glad for that but I wonder what he is concerned about. I told him the other vet had mentioned muscle trauma blah blah blah and he supported the other vet but I could hear his real opinion in his voice. To us, his leg still looks swollen but he isn't favoring it at all. I'm at work right now and am anxious to get home to see if he ate his breakfast. He wasn't interested in it this morning before we left, although he was all about eating our breakfast! As usual. He gets leftover oatmeal every morning and acts like it's filet mignon! But since we've been warned about going off his food being a bad sign, I'm anxious to get home.
I'll let you guys know. I hope y'all are doing well. It's easy to overlook other people's grief when you're wrapped up in caring for a sick one. I don't mean to as I know you both are grieving as well. Thank you again.
-Donna

Hi, Donna, I'm glad your regular vet called you to check up on your precious Buck. It's kind of frustrating when folks won't just come out and say what's on their mind, isn't it? Perhaps you can follow up with your vet in a later discussion about Buck's leg and what his concerns are / were about the swelling, etc.. I am so hoping that when you get home you will see that he has eaten his breakfast. I am a little surprised that oatmeal would be harmful - - unless it's the instant kind that has sugar in it as opposed to the basic oatmeal that you have to cook. The absolute good news is that he's no longer favoring his leg, which I presume means he's weight bearing okay on it now. This is really good news. There may be some residual swelling for a few more days, and again, a cool pack for a few minutes may help with that - - providing of course you can get him to lay still long enough to apply it for a few minutes.

Donna, with everything that you have gone through with Frasier and Niles, and now Buck - - don't apologzie at all for battening down the hatches and tuning out the world for awhile. When you're so overwhelmed it's hard to know which end is up. Just remember - - when in doubt all you need to do is log onto this Forum and we'll help you through it.

We will be looking forward to hearing from you whenever possible, Donna, and please know you are close in my thoughts and prayers. (And Daphne and Sera)

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Well, he didn't eat his breakfast. And he wasn't interested in his dinner but yet was begging for my husband's dinner. He would eat anything except the k/d. He did finally eat some of it and then wanted to go out to hit the golf ball. So, go figure.
My neighbor commented that Buck wasn't smiling tonight. I hate when people point stuff out like that. I thought he was looking rather handsome laying in the grass like a king. But he smiled and wagged his tail when I went over to him.
But, all in all, I feel like he is beginning to unravel. And I am beginning to think of things we won't have anymore. It's just the way I have to mentally prepare. My husband starts a new job next week after 23 years at his current job. It should be a time of celebration but I'm so afraid that Buck will get bad just as he starts the job. He won't have the freedom he has now to come home if he needs to. He will be further away. I would hate for his spirits to be dampened when he needs to be at his sharpest. I'm probably putting the cart before the horse again, but the way things have gone over the last year, I can't help it.
I love that dog. He's a sweet, gentle, stubborn, predictable, funny old soul. And just as I did with Frasier & Niles, I"ve been telling him how perfect he is. My husband & I have been trying to spend as much cuddle-time with him as we can. But physically, this will be much harder than the boys were. Buck is so big. And I didn't have to deal with the brothers falling over or stumbling. This adds a whole new facet to the care. I just get so depressed thinking about the coming days. How will I ever muster up the strength and courage to do this again?
-Donna

Hi Donna,

I am so sorry Buck is not doing well. I know how hard it is for you and your husband. I still feel so depressed about Shelby and I know you are still feeling the same about your babies - my heart goes out to you. I know how hard it is to watch you baby stumble. I had a dog that I gave to my mom after my father passed away. Tawny just loved my Dad (they really had a special bond) and my mom asked me if she could have her. As she got older when I went to visit I could see the light going out of her eyes. She was such a wonderful and giving dog. She helped me through some really hard times and she stepped up to the plate when mom needed her. All our little fur-kids are special in their own way. I only wished they could stay with us forever. Hang in there. You and Buck are in my thoughts and prayers.

Karen

Thanks Karen. I appreciate your thoughts and good wishes.
Buck is not interested in his food at all. And this morning he wasn't interested in the carrots my husband offered even though he ate them last night. He was wagging his tail a bit this a.m. & wanted to hit the golf ball but otherwise, he looks sad. As Karen said, the light seems to be going out in his eyes.
My husband is now very concerned and it takes alot for him to begin to worry in these situations. He did hit the ball for him for a few seconds before we had to leave for work and Buck did well. He was sad to see us leave. I just hate this not knowing what is next and when something will happen. My husband is going to try to reach the vet this a.m. before he leaves for the day as he is off on Wed.
-Donna

OK - so my husband spoke to the vet. He is concerned that his leg is still swollen where he got the steroid injection. I wonder what he is thinking.....
He wants us to go back on the pain pills even though they compromise his kidneys further so my husb. will go home at lunch to give him one. He said let's give him a couple of days to see how he responds. My one selfish concern is that all this waiting puts me in the position of having to take "care" of him by myself next week if everything goes awry. My husband starts the new job Monday and I will feel alone. I'll be closer to home than he will be but it is very stressful for me to take time off of work because I have to get someone to fill in for me and that's very hard for me to do. I don't know why. But then again, I feel I've been needy over the last 12 months.

Donna, I'm so sorry Buck isn't eating well. I know what you mean about others pointing something out that you couldn't see. We bought a house last fall and we were in the backyard meeting the neighbor...the neighbor looked at Brutus and said "that's the oldest lab I've ever seen". I was floored...what? It just so happened a week later we had him euthanized...sometimes others see what we don't want to. I'll be sending prayers that Buck will start feeling better and you have more quality time together.

Hugs to you and Buck,
Brutus' Mom

Hi, Donna, I am so o o sorry that Buck is not doing so well these days. I do know how difficult this is for you and your husband. It's impossible not to feel like you're "unraveling" when your heart is having to deal with multiple losses and a fur child who has medical challenges.

Donna, draw on our collective strength to help you and Buck through whatever lies ahead. I know we aren't there with you physically, but we are with you in spirit. It is hard to see the light in our furkids eyes begin to dim. It's their way of preparing for their journey beyond this side of eternity. But the fact that his eyes still light up when he sees you and his dad is a good sign that he's not ready to leave you yet. So, hold onto that, Donna. The only thing you can do is take it one day at time, Donna - - sometimes one moment at a time.

I hope the pain medication will help with Buck's leg. By the way, the k/d food is really bland - - not much flavor at all. Oslo used to eat that when he had bouts of gastritis. So there might be something you can add to it to make it more palatable for him. The fact that he's more interested in your food than his is a good indication that he has an appetite - - just not for the bland stuff in his bowl.

Donna, please know you and Buck are close in my thoughts and prayers, and please keep us posted on how things are going.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Buck's update...
I haven't gotten home yet to see how he is today but he is still refusing the k/d. My husband spoke to the vet this a.m. and I spoke to him just now. We will try to feed him carbohydrates as long as he will eat.
We are probably looking at hospitalizing him on Monday if he holds through the weekend. We need to try IV fluids for 3 days. We would bring him home in the evenings to be with us. The problem is, just as I had feared, I will be alone in doing that. It's extremely difficult for me to transport him and I won't have the help of my husband as he starts the new job on Monday and his hours won't allow him to be available. I'll have to figure that out later depending on how Buck does over the weekend.
Please wish us good luck. When I asked, the vet admitted that Buck is beginning to unravel. Even though I knew it, it's still hard to hear - especially from the expert.
I don't know how much more I can take. It scares me to even say that because I don't want to find out.
-Donna

Dear Donna, I am so sorry about Buck. I know this is a very difficult time for you and I so wish I could be there to help you with him. Is there some way you could rig a ramp with a piece of strong plywood to help get him in and out of the car? Also, the vet techs should be able to help you get him out of the car in the morning when you take him in for the fluids and then back into the car when you pick him up. That should help some, I hope. Remember - - one day at a time, Donna, although I know it's easier said than done.

Please know you and your precious Buck are close in my thoughts and prayers, and will be standing by to share your news.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Thanks Moonbeam. We do have a ramp for him that he's been using for awhile.
But a further update, the vet kept saying that when vomiting occurs, we are deep trouble. When we got home this evening, he had spit up a little bit on his bed. And now I'm unraveling.
My husband has gone into overdrive and won't sit down. He's trying to keep really busy - it's just what he does. And all I want to do is sit and cry. Buck seems happy. We're making him some bland slow-cooked oatmeal right now. I keep thinking about Margi and what she must be going through this very minute. And I feel we'll be there soon.
-Donna

Dear Donna

I understand so well what you are going through and just wish I could help you. You say in your post 'Buck seems happy'. Try and focus on that and just carry on doing what you do so well, and thats caring for him.
Thinking of you and Dear Buck.
Love Jan and my Angels and Pixie xx

Dear Donna, I wish there were some words I can find to say that could be of some comfort to you. Jan is right - - try to stay focused on that Buck seems happy. He could have just had an upset tummy - - nothing more. At least, I hope that's the case and that the oatmeal will settle on his tummy. I know Margi is going through her own private hell right now, but that does not diminish the suffering you and your husband are going through with Buck's health challenges. There is a part of me that is with Margi and Ladywolf, and there is a part of me that also with you reaching out across the miles.

That's one of the nice things about our spirit - - it's not confined to one situation or one location.

Please know you and Buck are in my thoughts and prayers, Donna, and I am anxiously awaiting to share your news about how you and Buck are doing.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

He ate his oatmeal w/ a little k/d mixed in it. He's smiling and wagging that tail and wants to hit the golf ball. But we did call the vet at home & we are taking him in tomorrow a.m. to check his levels and do IV fluids all day then recheck at the end of the day. If his numbers have come down any, we will do it again Sat. a.m. until noon, when they close. It's not the ideal (which would be 3 straight days of it for his size) but we're not in an ideal situation so we have to do what we can. I hate this! I HATE THIS!!!!! I know we're only prolonging the inevitable but I have to feel like I tried.
-Donna

ok ok wait a minute....i just went outside and notice something and I need to know if anyone else has an idea. What we thought was vomit is not. I kept looking at it thinking it looked more like pus from an infection. Well, I just noticed the same fluid around Bucks "area". Could this be a kidney infection now? Has anyone here had a dog with kidney failure also have this? I'm waiting on my vet to call me back.

Donna--

I hate this too!

Margi and Ladywolf

Boy, I'm just on and off the forum back and forth tonight.
I spoke to the vet and he believes the fluid is smegma. Y'all are probably familiar with that especially if you've had male dogs so I won't explain but it's normal. The only thing is that never ever ever in Buck's whole life have I seen that on him. Dr. R. says it happens whether I've seen it or not and perhaps Buck just didn't groom himself there this afternoon. At any rate, he has changed the plan for tomorrow. We're not taking Buck in for fluids since it wasn't vomit and Buck is acting normal. Instead, I'm going to catch a urine sample (I can hear Margi laughing through her tears at that) first thing in the a.m. and take it in. He will check for a bladder infection just to be sure. So, I'm relieved but I still think maybe we should get fluids in him. I don't know. Dr. R. knows all of my concerns and he knows everything going on with my husband's job change so I guess I should just trust his judgment here. After all, I thought it was vomit!
I hope I don't have anything else to report tonight.
-Donna

Good LUCK, Donna!!! LOL!!! Does it have to be a "clean catch"?

Margi

Today's Buck update..
We got the urine & took it in. We took Buck with us because I just felt we should in case the vet decided he wanted to see him. I'm glad we did.
It turns out, there is an infection somewhere along the urinary line, perhaps in his bladder. We're starting antibiotics and pepcid. His kidney values have continued to rise over the last 2 weeks but his weight has remained stable despite his inappetance. (By the way, as I'm writing this, I can hear him outside playing in the sprinkler!) It is possible that the infection has caused some of the elevation in the kidney values so the vet wants to give him through the weekend on the antibiotics and see how Buck is feeling on Monday.
I know all of this is just going to be touch and go. It just seems like near the end, more and more things begin to crop up until the body just says "no more". That's exactly what happened to Frasier and Niles. It just gets to be too much. I hope he responds well to the meds but I realistically know what we're looking at.
If he isn't doing well by Monday, we will go the 3-day route of IV fluids. It will be extremely difficult for me because I'll have so much to accomplish before I even start my work day. I've got a project at work next week that will require me to be focused and fast because I have to finish it before the end of the week. I know all things work in God's plan but sometimes you just want to yell, "why!?"
The vet said Buck just isn't mortal to be functioning the way he is with his levels where they are. But my husband and I know that Buck has always been extremely strong-willed. He always has to win. He never accepts defeat of any kind. (which made him a nightmare at 2 years old!) But that will is serving him well now. So, we wait. (with that all too familiar knot in my stomach)
-Donna

After the sprinkler this morning...
Click to view attachment

Hi Donna,

I am so sorry to hear all the news about Buck. I know how hard it is for you and how we stress over our babies. Shelby's numbers were off the charts too, but try to remember you are treating Buck not the number (I realize first hand that is very hard to do). It sounds like he is having some good times, so try to enjoy these moments. Please know you and Buck remain in my thoughts and prayers.

Take care
Karen

Oh Buck is such a darling. So glad he enjoyed his sprinkler this morning. I do hope he has lots more happy times. Thinking of you and Buck.
Hugs Jan and my Angels and Pixie x

Buck is beautiful! And look at that smile. I hope he's doing OK today.

Rhapsedy

Hi, Donna, your news sounds more promising than it did early yesterday evening, believe it or not. Buck is such a trooper. I can see in his face that he's not giving up. He's got that lookin his face and eyes, "It ain't over until the Fat Lady sings," and at least for the moment he looks like he's laughing in her face. It's really good news that his weight has stabilized, and the UTI could be the culprit for the recent weight loss and his lack of appetite. I do so hope the antibiotics do the job for him so that he can feel better, which means that you will be able to breathe just a little bit easier, too. I do mean -- b r e a t h e.

Donna, please know you and Buck are close in my thoughts and prayers, and will look forward to knowing how you both are doing. One day at a time, Donna, - - and don't forget to b r e a t h e.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Thank you all for your replies. My husband and I are trying to discuss decisions and possibilities. I'd like to ask y'all for guidance or advice even though I know no one can make this decision for us. We are trying to decide if we want to pursue fluids on Monday or not.
Our thinking goes like this:
1. There's no guarantee that the fluids will work and if they work, it may not be enough.
2. If they do work, how long will they work. There's no way to know.
3. If they don't work or only work for a short time, then Buck spent the better part of his remaining days in a miserable state because he hates being left at the vet. Last year when I picked him up one evening I could hear him crying and howling long before he knew I was there. They said he'd been doing that. He's as happy as he can be at the moment, I think. What if hospitalization breaks his spirit. He's living on his spirit alone right now. (He's certainly not living on food!)
4. We can see the change in his eyes the last few days. They aren't open as wide as normal. He looks tired in the face to us.
5. But he is still wanting to play and go at the golf ball and sprinkler. But that's it - there isn't the normal good mood except when he's playing.
6. If we don't do the fluids, will we be ok with that later. Are we doing fluids for us or for him.
7. The vet said that he felt obligated to do them because we did have such good success last year. But he also says that Buck is in a different place now and his numbers are way higher than before and he is older and more compromised. He's speaking medically, we're thinking about Buck's spirits - quality vs. quantity.

Like I said, I know no one can make this decision but I'm coming to y'all because I know that there are so many different situations on this forum. We've all been faced with these difficult decisions. And that's why I'm asking. Any help or just thoughts or questions would be much appreciated.
-Donna

Donna-

I can only give your my subjective immediate reaction--which is to go for quality, not quantity. If Buck hates the vet, then he will only be miserable while he's there. Even the vet is subtly suggesting not to do it.

I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who lost two dogs yesterday--one a total shock--Sweet Pea with her cancer, and the other totally expected, Lady with her cancer. But at no time did either of them have to endure many many hours, or even days, at the vet's office. Sweet Pea had to be assisted in her journey, but Ladywolf went gracefully and peacefully at home.

If it were me, I wouldn't do the fluids. But ultimately, you'll have to decide for yourselves, of course. Can you live with it? I can live with the fact that Ladywolf MAY have gone into diabetic coma, although I don't think so, and I couldn't afford nor did i WANT to take her in for testing. Quality, not quantity.

Again, this is just my own reaction to what little I really understand about your situation. I am so so sorry that you are in the situation in the first place--it's heaartbreaking!

Big hugs from Margi

I agree with Ladywolf, whom is brave for just showing up and writing, after having gone thru her two losses yesterday. Ultimately it's your choice, and as someone asked me, about my dog Kota whom I had to put down last month, "Do you want to be her nurse or friend?" On Kota's last day, I took her swimming, which is the only thing that made her feel better, and the only time she wagged her tail. She was still eating and drinking, but for months I had to stand behind her and hold up her backside. There was a checklist regarding their quality of life, which my vet had given me. Out of nine items, she was lacking on 6 of them (things like wanting to be touched, trouble moving around, prognosis of the disease, etc.)

Even after almost a month, I still don't want to believe in Kota's mortality, something your vet talked about. Any decision you have made or will make, is done out of love. That's evident how much you love Buck, and to the ends of the earth you will go for him. Your question about trying different things to help him, "Is it for him or us?" Whatever decision you make, make no regrets or feelings of guilt. My doctor, whose son had committed suicide, straightforwardly told me that "Death is part of the cycle of life". It's the hardest thing to do to face it with the one you love most. A friend of mine, kind of a dog psychic, told me to look into Kota's eyes and I will know when it's time. You mentioned something about Buck's eyes looking tired. Lay down with him, and just be present and listen with your heart as to what he is telling you. I hope for you a miracle. My miracle was the life I had with Kota. There was no miracle to keep her from the ultimate journey. Our time with our loved pets goes by so quickly. He knows you love him and will make the correct decision for him. Peace to your family and Buck.

Dennis

Hi Donna, still sending prayers for you and Buck. What a great pic. There is no right/wrong answer to your dilemia. I do know that in some ways I feel guilty about not hanging onto Brutus as long as possible, but yet I feel good that he never experienced prolonged visit at the vets or poking/proding which would only had prolonged the ineviatable...I sometimes feel I just couldn't win. Brutus too hated the vets and as soon as we would pull into the parking lot he would bark a bark that was painful to hear, it was a scared/lonely bark. Brutus, like Buck, always wanted to play...he would fish himself to not being able to move in the evening. We used to try to limit his activity, but the vet said to let him do what he wanted, if he felt good enough to do it, let him go, so that's what we would do. I'm thinking of you and your husband.

Hugs,
Sonya

Dear Donna

I totally agree with what Tahoeden and Margi and Sonya have written, but yes ultimately it is only you and your husband who truly know and can see Buck and how he is right now. It is a terrible dilemma for you, but you will do what is right for precious Buck out of your love for him. You say he is still wanting to play and enjoy the sprinkler, so he is still 'happy' with you. As we say sometimes the experience at the vets is too much for them and sadly I have to remember that my Noushka passed alone and at the vets. She was in for routine tests and then to be put on a drip and antibiotics. She didn't make it through that first night. I will never forgive myself for leaving her there. Thank goodness I lay on the floor of the vets and hugged and kissed her before they led her away. My precious Angel. She hated the vets , bless her little sweet soul.
Maybe let Buck carry on doing what he loves, with the people he loves. The vets prognosis is important though if they feel that the treatment(fluids) could be successful. Maybe get another opinion from them, or even just speak to them again for more advice.
I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful and I've probably confused you even more.
Please know that along with many people here I am thinking of you and sending hugs and prayers for you , your husband and your darling Buck.
Love Jan and my Angels and Pixie xx

Hi Donna,

Here are my thoughts... Callaway had lymphoma and I decided against chemo for two reasons, one it would have made him sick and two he hated going to the vet, he would shake and hide when we got there until we left. If Callaway were in the same situation as Buck I wouldn't do the fluids because he would have to be left at the vet and because there is no guarantee. You may buy him a couple of weeks/months but he probably will be uncomfortable for the extra time and quality is much better than quantity.

I am so sorry that you are going thru this... it is so hard to know what the right decision is but if you listen to your heart whatever you decide will be the right decision.

I will be praying for you during this difficult time.

Rhapsedy

Hi Donna,

I know what a difficult decision you and your husband are facing. I only know from my experience my vet did not want to do the IV fluids (as you remember I was having my doubts about not trying). She felt that if the sub-q fluids did not help Shelby, there was nothing more we could do for her. I know Dr K would have done them if she thought they would have helped. I have no regrets not doing them either. Some of people on the CRF site I was going on recommended the IV fluids, but we decided to listen to Dr K (and the advise I received on this forum). We treated Shelby at home and enjoyed every moment we had.

When she developed the fluid in her chest, the vet that saw her told us we could have had the fluids in her chest drained, but we decided then and there that Shelby had gone through enough. We also knew in making that decision that the CRF was bad - Shelby was not getting better with the treatment, so we thought treating her for another issue would only keep her with us for a short period. Everyone's situation is different, I know you and your husband will make the right decision for your precious Buck. It is a decision you will make with the love you have for Buck - follow your heart. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Take care of yourself.

Karen

Hi, Donna, I'm just getting caught up on your post from yesterday evening. There are so many pros and cons to "end of life" decisions - - and that's basically what this is. If Buck were human he would probably be in hospice care.

The question is what will the effects of giving Buck fluids have on him physically and emotionally. There are no guarantees with any decision you make, and believe me - - I know how frustrating the reality of that is. However, there is a BIG question here: Buck's kidneys are already compromised AND he has a UTI as well. Will his kidneys be able to handle the extra fluids? This is like a dialysis treatment, Donna, and I have seen patients who are in a very fragile medical situation after their treatments - - they are not comfortable until the fluids are eliminated. Will Buck's body be able to handle this?

My Eli contracted an infection the last week of his life. I took him to the vet who proceeded to give him wide open IV fluids to try to break his fever. The fever finally did break, I brought him home on a Saturday. He screamed all the way home - - which was not normal. When we finally got home he went to one of the litter latrines, and that was the last time he used one. It was to be his last weekend with his family. His abdomen started swelling from fluids that could not be processed and eliminated by his body normally, and he completely stopped eating. I called the vet Monday morning and took him on his final journey. I believe with all my heart from what I have learned since then that his bladder burst from the IV fluids. He only had one kidney which was compromised as well from the cancer, and which could not efficiently process the IV treatments he received to fight the fever and infection. The vet who was treating Eli at the time was not very communicative and would not give me straight answers to my questions. She left the practice within 6 months of Eli's death.

I do know how difficult this decision is for you and your husband, particularly so soon after losing Niles and Frasier. The bottom line question is: What can you and your husband live with in your heart of hearts about what to do or not do for your precious Buck at this time. Each of us here can share our personal experiences with you, but you and your husband are the ones who have the day to day life with Buck.

So, for whatever it is worth, here is my advice: If you have not already done so, talk to your vet about the effects the IV fluids will have on Buck's kidneys and urinary tract. AND - - as the other wonderful folks in this forum have already highly recommended, listen to Buck. Think of what you would want done to your body if you were coping with a compromised renal system. Would you want to be hooked up to IV fluids in a hospital, or at home, or would you rather be doing whatever you could to enjoy the time you have with your family - - even if it's just playing in the sprinklers and hitting the golf ball around?

Donna, whatever decision you and your husband make for Buck will be done with his best interests at heart. And please know that whatever decision you make you have my total support. I wish there is something more I could say that could be of some real help to you - - something that would give that "ahaa" insight that could help you through this heart wrenching dilemma. Again, for whatever it is worth, please know you, your husband, and your precious Buck are close in my thoughts and prayers, and I am here for you through this journey, wherever your journey leads you.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Thank you so much to everyone who replied to my question. Your thoughts have been more helpful than you'll ever know. Everyone made some really good points. As you can imagine, we go back and forth from one minute to the next with a different decision.
At this moment, we are leaning again towards doing the fluids. Of course we don't have to make the decision today but that's where we are at this time. The reason is that Buck definitely hasn't given up. His spirit to play and live is thriving. I know he doesn't feel well but he keeps pushing. How can we not fight with him? The only guarantee in all of this is that we will lose him. If we don't do fluids, we will definitely lose him soon. If we do fluids, we might regain a short amount of time. And I know I know I know - quality vs. quantity - I keep wrestling with that. If he were laying on the floor all day and not wagging his tail, I probably wouldn't do them. But since he is functioning when he should be semi-comatose, he must have a drive to stay with us. And it's that drive that I fear will haunt me if we don't do the fluids. Buck's not ready to go yet, that's for sure. I know that within the next hour, I'll probably feel differently. And like I said, we don't have to decide today. But this morning he was relentless about getting in the sprinkler. He kept waiting for it to come back on long after we had turned it off. He was upset that we wouldn't turn it back on but we could see he was exhausted to the point of not walking straight. He's been resting ever since.
I don't know! I DON'T KNOW!
But thank you all again. Your support is worth more than I can ever say. I hope you'll all bare with me as I go back and forth on this.
-Donna

So, here I am about an hour later and changing my mind. He just started vomiting. And that's really bad according to the vet the other day. I fear it may be too late to start fluids on Monday and there's no way I'm going to the emergency vet. My husband was running an errand when it happened but when he got home, he turned on the sprinkler again for Buck. He went nuts. What do you do when the body is failing but the heart, mind, and spirit are not? What do you do?
-Donna

My dear friend, Donna, to quote a line from the song, "Que Sera, Sera," "the future's not ours to see." The decisions that we make are based ever so much on faith, and sometimes blind faith, that everything will work out for the best. I agree with you - - yes, Buck is tired. You can tell that in his face and how he holds his body. BUT - - like I said yesterday, he has that expression "It ain't over until the Fat Lady sings", and from what you share with us, he seems very determined to spit in her eye for as long as he has the power to do it. My Oslo had the same look, and spirit, and as long as he was able to get to his feet, which usually required me helping him with his rear legs and holding him until he stabilized, he was ready to put forth the effort until the stroke - - and even then, for a brief moment - - he tried to show me that he didn't really want to give in, and I cherish that brief moment - - that very last brief moment - - when he amazed me with his indomitable spirit.

During Abbygayle's last two weeks, as you remember from my posts, I did elect to allow the vets to give her subQ fluids. The last treatment gave us a few more days together, which included one more weekend together, and I will always cherish that. SubQ fluids are quite different, as you know, from IV fluids. SubQ's are slowly absorbed, while IV fluids are straight into the system. When I took Abbygayle into the vet on Monday, March 15, her vet and I talked about giving her fluids, IV fluids, but it was very clear that she was so uncomfortable that I couldn't do that to her. It would have required hospitalization, and I just did not want a repeat of what happened with my Eli. And I knew, as the vet did, that the fluids would not have changed the course of the cancer - - the fluids would have strictly been to prolong her life until I was more "prepared" to let her go. I couldn't do that to my precious baby girl. She was definitely ready to be released from her physical body, and as her guardian, it was time to give her Spirit freedom from what was quickly becoming a painful physical body.

So, my experiences are totally different from your's at this time, Donna. I do so know what you're going through - - flipping the coin - - do I, don't I, and wishing that Buck could talk to you in a common language so that he could tell you what he wants. And the thing is, Donna, you can give it a try on Monday and see how he does. If he is really wiped out and uncomfortable, you can then make a better informed decision. Another question I have is: Will the vet do blood work up every morning BEFORE he gives the IV fluids to check on Buck's levels? If so, and there isn't any significant improvement, will you be given the option to not proceed? You see, the thing here is - - will you be given the opportunity to make the decisions for Buck with each treatment or will the vet require you to continue with the treatments even though your heart is telling you it's not in Buck's best interests?

And by the way, how is his leg doing now - - the one that he got the steroid injection in? From what you have shared with us he seems to be doing better now, and if that is an accurate assessment, I am ever so thankful and so o o o happy for him and for you.

Donna, I know you have a LOT on your heart and your mind, but try to focus on the enjoyment of having Buck still with you, as I know you are, but your heart is burdened with "Anticipatory Grief", which is very natural and normal. I'm probably stumbling around here with words, so let me try to say it this way: When you look at Buck, try not to see him as the Senior Citizen that he is but rather as a "vintaged wine" - - and savor the moments that you have with him. Drink in everything that he does - - particularly his funny moments like when he's perturbed with you for turning off the sprinklers long before HE was ready for you to do that. And I know you probably already do this, but just to gently remind you - - when you're snuggling with him or getting him his meals, take him on a walk down "memory lane" - - "Buck, remember when you were just a little baby, you used to - - whatever." and "Buck, remember when you did (whatever), and I was just a bit perturbed, but you know I loved you anyway - - how could I not love my rascal boy." They truly do understand what we're saying, Donna, and sharing precious memories with him will be comforting for the both of you.

And I know you already know this, but I just want to gently remind you - - we are here for you, Donna, through every step of this journey you are traveling with your precious Buck. Please know you and Buck are close in my thoughts and prayers, Donna, and please let us know how things are going.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Donna, just read your last post before mine. The vomitting could simply be a reaction to becoming so excited this morning with the sprinklers - - nothing more. However, that doesn't lessen the concern that continues to mount in your heart about what is best for him. Try to take a deep breath, now slowly release it - - do it again. Now, how is he doing since his upset tummy? Is he alert and resting comfortably now? Is he wanting to go back outside into the sprinkers? If he continues to have an upset tummy, then you will probably need to call your vet or seek emergency assistance, unless your vet gave you instructions about what to do. BUT - - if he does well now and doesn't have another upset tummy, then it could very well have been a result of his play time this morning. Now, that doesn't mean he shouldn't have the play time anymore - - it just means that, as with all children who don't know when it's time to stop and rest, that he needs to have his play time shortened a little bit.

One moment at a time, Donna, and don't forget to b r e a t h e.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Thank you Moonbeam. It so hard. It's just so hard. I'm very emotional right now. I've always joked that Buck doesn't think he's part of the family, he thinks he's part of the marriage. Truth be known, I guess he is! Even though Niles & Frasier were part of everything about me, Buck is probably even more so. The brothers were part of my emotional me but Buck is part of the physical me in that we take him with us places and he's right in the middle of everything we do. Cats are more self sufficient but dogs not so much. We haven't even been able to hug during the last 11 1/2 years because Buck doesn't like it. He barks when we touch one another.
I have been talking to him alot and telling him how smart and perfect he is. He just wags his tail. This forum is such a great place to be because I feel I've used up most of the sympathies with people I know. Of course, they're sympathetic but they don't want to just sit and listen to me go on and on about it. And due to the intense family drama in my life, I don't feel I can burden my mom any further. She has enough on her already and I know it's hard for her to hear me cry when she can't be here.
I haven't cried excessively about it because I don't want to in front of Buck and because I don't want to lose control still so early in the game. I think I'm starting to weaken there. With the vomiting, the almost complete loss of appetite, and a little diarrhea, the symptoms are yelling at us. But then the sprinkler comes on and.......
One of the reasons we keep turning it on for him is because it's the only way he's getting any water into his body and we know he needs it. My husband isn't hitting the ball as much because we don't think Buck should be trying to run around so much. With the sprinkler, he just stands and bites it and barks at it. He only runs to the next zone to see if another head will pop up. In some awful way, I just wish he would collapse and go while fighting the sprinkler. At least then I'd know he was having the time of his life.
Between me and y'all, I'm really afraid about next week. With my husband's new job starting Monday, I just want him to be able to focus. He can't ask for time off so I could very well end up facing the "deed" by myself. And I won't be able to communicate with him during the workday for awhile except at lunch or his breaks. I'm sure we'll talk about it later this weekend so that we're on the same page with the decisions to be made in his absence. I can get the help of my father-in-law if I have to do the worst and that will sort of be like having my husband there. And who knows, by the end of this weekend, things could have resolved themselves. He could get worse and we have to call the vet tomorrow.
Anyway, it just feels good to write out my thoughts and feelings. There's just no way to not obsess right now. But living in this state of emergency vigil that has lasted for over 10 months among 3 different pets is taking it's toll on me. It seems like nothing is the same in my home anymore. No more brothers, new job for hsb after 23 years at the same place, selling a vehicle, the loss of a relationship with family members that I had no control over, new girl kitties in the house whom I don't know, and now losing Buck. I know I'm whining but I've got nowhere else to go to do it.
-Donna

Donna,

I don't know that I can add anthing significant here but I know exactly where you are right now. Different circumstances but the back & forth about when is it time? I struggled a long time to make "THE" appointment. Then it was oh, she's doing better today. Oops, today not so good. Another good day. Another bad day. Man, oh man....... she's actually trying to PLAY & RUN today & we are now down to 2 days. She was such a strong soul & her spirit had amazed her vets for several years already. I carried her around that whole week every single day outside to let her smell the fresh air, see what she could of the open fields and just let her know how much she had meant to me for all those 17+ years. Thought of canceling the appointment every single day.

Without too much detail I can only say cleaning her up when she couldn't stand to do her business was a real ordeal. She had always been touchy on her rear end because of the back injury but she had bitten the groomer so we could no longer keep her up and she was really getting cranky with me to the point of drawing blood from a strong bite on my thumb during one clean up session. Was ornery about me trying to hold her lightly just ahead of her hips so she would not fall even. So I was pretty sure she no longer felt the quality of life and I sure didn't want to fight with her every step of the way. She ate good (well, as good as she had since the special food became necessary) but the days of walking semi normally had been over for her for at least a month.

Like Buck, she HATED the vets. Like Buck, she wouldn't give up. I feel like I was the one who had to finally say it was time to give up for her. I only hope there will be a family member strong enough to say it is time to give up for me should I not be able to say that for myself.

It is so sad to see our beloved pets who have given so much joy and asked for so little in return detiorate before our eyes and knowing that we are the ones who have the tough decisions for what is in their best interest especially since they cannot verbally tell us how they feel. I know that we know them so well that we can tell most things but then the heart gets in the way...................... you will make the RIGHT decision whichever you decide and I'll just bet it will change many, many times by Monday.

I have followed many of the journeys here on this forum and it brings my & Flossies final days back to the surface every single time. Though I do not know anyone personally on here I do feel sadness for what each one has to go through. You, your husband and Buck are in my thoughts this weekend.

Ginger

Hi, Donna, you have had a lot to deal with in a short period of time. What you describe as "whining" is grieving, Donna. You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. We all have our breaking points, and I admire your stamina to endure what you have, Donna. What has been asked of you emotionally continuously over this past year has been, in my opinion, above and beyond what anyone should be expected to endure.

I so do understand your feelings about the preferred circumstances for Buck's passing into heaven's perfect garden. Wishing him to join the angels at a moment when he is the happiest is the true heart of love. It doesn't diminish the grief of loss, but it takes a burden off the heart in that you would not have to make the "decision" for Buck.

Donna, each of us understands the concern and love you have for Buck, or what you call "obsession." I'm glad to know that your father-in-law is a reliable stand by in case you need help with Buck at some point in time if your husband is not personally able to be there at that moment. But whatever the situation or circumstance, Donna, please know we are here for you ALL the time, and we will NEVER think of you as "whining." Please know you and Buck are in my thoughts and prayers, Donna, and I will look forward to knowing how things are going as you're able to share with us.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

So, this morning not much has changed. He's still up and wanting that sprinkler. There hasn't been anymore vomiting but he refuses to eat or drink. The only water he's getting is when he's in the sprinkler. The vet had told us that the refusal to eat is the body's way of keeping out what it can't manage. But he's got to be starving to death. I read somewhere on the internet this morning about people force feeding their dogs and I wonder if we should be doing that too. But those people also talked about the excessive vomiting. So what good does it do to force feed if it's going to come back out? I forced Frasier and Niles to no good end. After Niles passed I said I wouldn't go the route of forcing again unless the animal had a condition that could be cured. And here I am feeling guilty if I don't.
Today, as expected, we are leaning against the fluids. We've been looking at how happy he looks laying in his yard, all proud. That's where he needs to stay no matter what it means. Fluids or no, the end result is the same. It's just a difference of when and maybe not even that. The ONLY thing that pushes me back and forth is his will to live. But as some of you have said and from what I found this morning on the internet, that will to live may never stop. We may have to end it for him despite his will. My stomach is churning. The clock is ticking. We have to decide what we can live with. I just keep thinking about Niles and Frasier and how things snowballed near their ends. I said I would learn from their deaths to take it easy when I know that I'm dealing with the incurable. That I wouldn't throw medication after medication down an animal's throat in a desperate attempt to stall nature and make myself feel heroic. I didn't save either one of them but instead their sweet little faces were dirtied with wet food and they had a look of panic and dread when I'd walk in the room. They were such clean boys and I'm sure it took some of their dignity to be such a mess. Buck is very proud. It's his way or no way. He doesn't know we have options so it's hard to look in his face and know what he would want.
Thanks for letting me get it all out. I'll keep you posted.
-Donna

Hi, Donna, another day. One more day to spend with your handsome Buck. One more day to be on the emotional roller coaster of "should I" "shouldn't I" and "why". Last night as I was winding down from the day's activities with my Noah snuggled next to me I was thinking of you and Buck, and it came to mind that the sprinklers are Buck's "fountains of youth." That's where he feels strong and healthy and happy.

Donna, I do so know your desperation to try to get Buck to eat and drink water of his free will. But your vet is right - -do not force feed Buck. I have been that route, too, in previous years, and have learned valuable lessons. Abbygayle's failure to eat and drink water on her own was a clear indication, particularly our last weekend together, that her body was shutting down. I did syringe feed her kitty milk, sugar water (clear Karo syrup mixed with water), and soupy food just to get some moisture into her, because I didn't want her to go into crisis with seizures which would have prompted a run into the emergency vet. My goal was to get her through the weekend until I could get her to her regular vet on Monday evening. When I got home from work that Monday, I tried to give her some milk before going into the vet, but she fought me - - and I knew then that our trip into the vet was not to assess her for treatment but to end her suffering. And she had begun to suffer - - she was in noticeable pain with her leg and at that time it was obvious she was starving to death.

So, my questions to you this morning are: Is Buck in pain? Is he separating himself from you prefering to not be a part of you and your husband? When he has vomitting episodes, is it clear or yellow or dark brown bile?

Unfortunately, yes, as Buck's guardian you will probably be called upon to determine when "enough is enough" for him. I don't like it, either, Donna. But as you know it is the last gift of love we can give to our precious furkids at great sacrifice to ourselves so that they can be released from their failing physical bodies.

Even if you decide not to go the route of fluid treatment Buck can still have a quality of life with you for -- however long it is for him to show you that his body has reached the limit of what he can endure. Right now he is in "critical" condition but he hasn't given into it yet.

Is it "heroic" to subject him to IV fluid therapy? All living bodies can go without food for days, weeks, months, with no harm done. To live, however, all living bodies must have fluids for survival. Without fluids there is an entire system body failure. Right now it appears from what I understand from what you have shared with us the sprinklers are the only way Buck feels comfortable getting his fluids.

Talk to your vet about the options of SubQ fluids as opposed to IV therapy. SubQ's can possibly help to keep Buck comfortable without overloading his body with fluids he very possibly will not be able to efficiently process, and your vet may be able to show you how to give Buck the subQ's at home rather than having to take him into the vet every few days. Think of this as if Buck were a diabetic - - instead of giving him insulin you are giving him fluids to help keep him comfortable for however long he can still be with you and your husband. Give yourself, and Buck, as many options as possible according to what Buck is showing you.

I wish I could be of more help to you, Donna. I wish I could be there with you and your husband and Buck to offer you something more than just "armchair encouragement." I can only hope that somehow as you read through my notes to you that you will feel encouragement and comfort, and if possible, some renewed hope. Without hope there is nothing left. As you know faith and hope go hand in hand, Donna, although they do not diminish the painful reality when we are faced with the prospects of losing someone we love and cherish - - whatever the life form.

Donna, whatever you decide on Buck's behalf will be made with the deepest love you have for him in your heart. You can trust that, as do I and everyone else in this wonderful Forum. And most importantly, Buck knows that. Right now all he needs is your love and comfort and reassurance. He knows he is on a journey that is slowly separating him from you physically. Whatever else you are able to offer him in keeping his physical body comfortable during his journey will be a source of comfort to the both of you both now and later.

Donna, please know you and your precious Buck are close in my thoughts and prayers, and please do let us know how things are going, and how you're doing.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Moonbeam, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I want to answer some of your questions and hopefully it will help me to see things laid out again.
He only vomited the one time yesterday and it was yellow mucous with some food and foam. No, he doesn't appear to be in pain. Not feeling 100% but not in pain either. No, he doesn't separate from us. He is most comfortable when we sit on the back porch with him. He still comes to bed for my husband to hoist him into the bed with us. With respect to sub-q fluids, we went that route with Niles and Frasier but because of Buck's size, our vet says the amount of sub-q we'd have to give to make a difference would be enormous. He said it would be like spitting into the ocean.
And you are giving encouragement even though it's long distance. I don't think I could survive without having a place to go to and keep running over the same questions again and again. You've been very helpful and I appreciate it so much.
You know, all along with all three of our pets I've repeated that I just don't want them to hurt. And while I can't stop all hurt, I can stop the stress of going into the vet. Buck is happiest when he's at home. We can't cure him. Aren't we just trying to buy time for ourselves? And not that there's anything wrong with that because I don't believe he is suffering. But I see how happy he is outside right now. Although, I will say that he seems obsessed with playing in the sprinkler. I don't know if it is his need for water that's driving him or if it's really him wanting to have fun. I can't quite figure that out. I'm hoping the vet will call us today because I hate to call him on his day off. But I may have to if we don't hear from him. We have so many questions.
I can't help but keep thinking that if Buck's happiness is all that matters, then he should remain home. He hates when we leave for work but I could come home at lunch tomorrow to spend a little time with him. And there is a possibility that I could take Tues or Wed off. If he hangs in there like he is now, then I can make it to my regular off day which is Thursday to make a decision. But with him not eating or drinking, I don't think he will last. I need to get water in him, as you said.
So I'm back to I don't know, I don't know. I just hope to speak to the vet. I'll let you know what happens, of course. I just need prayers at this time that we will have definitive signs of what to do so that we can have peace with our decisions. I'm so thankful that my husband is home today as this is his first Sunday off - almost ever! I'm glad to not be alone. We'll see what happens.
-Donna

I've just read through all your recent posts, and had a strong intuitive reaction to this oh, so complicated situation...and that was to SIMPLIFY. There are so many variables at play--and then there's Buck, happy at home, albeit not eating or drinking right now except in the sprinkler. All these things you are weighing and measuring are making the situation so complex with options that I'm not surprised you are feeling like you're losing your mind...

This is just my own subjective reaction, and is what I chose to do myself. At one point, I looked at Ladywolf as she was clearly on her way out and asked her, "Do you want me to hustle to try to find money to take you to the vet to try to save you?" and she gave me a very strange look and very clearly said "No...it's my time, sad as that is for you." And so, I let her go. I don't know if she could have been saved or not, temporarily, with veterinary intervention, but I chose not to go for it, because SHE had chosen....

I know this is kind of blunt input, coming from me, and it's not my place to make your decisions. Only you can do that. And the situation seems to be changing from moment to moment with Buck, which makes it even harder to know what to do. But, as others have suggested, I would put yourself in HIS place and see what YOU would want done. If he can't/won't eat, he's going to be very weak if he goes to the vet. On the other hand, he'd be under surveillance--but you might lose him there instead of at home.

I know how painful all this must be for you--I just wanted to share what my intuition told me, and to encourage you to listen hard to your own intuition. On some level, you DO know what is the right thing to do.

Blessings to you and your family and especially to dear Buck.

Big hugs--Margi and Ladywolf's spirit

Hi, Donna, - - the best thing you can do is to talk to Buck's vet to try to help with your decision. I do so understand the agonizing process you are going through, my friend. For now it sounds like Buck is "stable" in his condition, and that is in itself a blessing. Since he hasn't had anymore vomitting episodes that is good, too. That episode could simply have been a result of too much activity.

Donna, I am so oo glad that your husband is able to be home with you today. Please know you and Buck are in my thoughts and prayers, and please know I will look forward to knowing how things are going. And I hope in some way you will feel me reaching out to you across the miles walking beside you every step of the way.

Peace and blessings,
moon_beam

Thank you both so much. Margi, you make some really good points. We're seriously thinking about letting nature take over. I can't move past the idea that we can't cure him. If we even get extra time with the fluids, it will keep all of us, including Buck, in this not so good place. I just can't imagine that we could get a significant drop in his levels nor a drop that would maintain an amount of time that would make it worth it. Last year we only got a 30 point drop and that's when the levels were alot lower than they are now and he was a year younger. If all we got was a 30 point drop this time, we'll just be back to where we were 2 weeks ago and he wasn't that great then. The vet even said he's not the same dog he was last year and this is a much larger hurdle to get over. On the other hand, I never thought we'd have him this long. And on that same hand, he should be comatose by now.
I just feel sick to my stomach. I don't know how in the world I'll make it at work tomorrow!
His bowels aren't very good right now (probably the antibiotic on an empty stomach but maybe the kidneys) and we're having to clean him off alot. He's ok w/ that as he's used to me being a fanatic about that. But Margi, you said what would I want if I were in his position. I don't really know. I really really don't know. You also said that on some level I do already know what is the right thing to do. That really makes me think. So, I've got more thinking to do. I need to dig down and find my intuition but like Moonbeam said, I have to talk to the vet first. I don't have all the info I think I need right now. Thank you ladies for all your help. Hitting the refresh button on my computer has become my obsession.
-Donna

Hitting the refresh button on my computer has become my obsession.

Mine too, Donna!! I'd go mad without this Forum!

Yes, I forgot to mention how important I think it is that you discuss all this with your vet. The vet probably has a realistic idea of what the outcome of all of this might be, and certainly can share more information with you...

Blessings to you, darlin, and to Buck!

Margi