It's good to see alot of the same people here right now because I'm just too emotional to get into the whole thing but I'll try.

My vizsla Copper was put down on New Year's Eve after we found out that he had a very serious form of cancer. My other vizsla, Penny, was a rescue dog who had been severely abused for 4 years and was a very special case. We knew her history when we got her but I have a lot of dog experience & was willing to give it a try. One of the best things for her was Copper. She trusted us more when he was around. After he died, she was completely broken up. She started going back to her old ways. We got her another dog & that helped for awhile but then she started dominating him. She'd bitten me in the past. After Copper died, she bit me again. She'd been gettting very aggressive anytime she'd be just a tiny bit afraid.

Well, today she was on the couch with a bag of chips. I wasn't even trying to take them from her. She lunged at me, grabbed my forearm and wouldn't let go. I had to kick her repeatedly to get her off me. My husband ran to get a stick because he didn't think she was going to stop. Fortunatly, I was wearing a leather coat. Even with that I have a 2" tear in my arm that is really deep and needed 2 layers of stiches.

Before I would go to the ER I told my husband we had to take her to the animal shelter before I changed my mind. This was my 3rd ER trip from her biting me. It's just so hard because when she's not afraid she's such a sweet dog. Now she has to stay there for 10 days before they can put her down because of dog bite laws. No one can walk her or even pet her. I feel so torn up and guilty. She doesn't deserve for her last days to be like this. But I can't keep her here either. I'd run the risk of getting attacked again or changing my mind. Or worse, she might finally bite someone else.

Tonight there was a thunderstorm. We worked so hard to help her through those. She needs to be under a blanket watching TV to feel safe and instead she's alone in a kennel. I really wish they could have just gotten it over with because thinking of her alone and afraid is just ripping me apart.

Even though she's bitten me 6, I still love her unconditionally. That might be hard for some people to understand but I don't care. It's not her fault that she's the way she is. If she had been treated decently, this never would have happened. People who think there's nothing wrong with beating a dog are idiots! She was such a sweet loving dog. She just didn't understand that I wasn't going to beat her. I never did and I never would have.

V.Angel,

I'm so, so sorry to see you back here, and so soon again.

I had hope that things were working out for you and Penny and things had settled down. My heart goes out to you. This is just awful.

Poor Penny, she didn't ask for such a horrible start in her life but bears the scars from her ill treatment. If anyone could have made her feel secure again it would have been you, you did everything possible for her.

This is just so heartbreaking, I can't even comprehend how you must be feeling. I'm so sorry for you and Penny.

I completely understand your unconditional love for her, she is such a sweet girl. I completely understand how torn up you feel by this, of course you would be.

She lost Copper, the one thing in her life she truely felt at ease with.

V.Angel, I am truely, truely sorry to hear of this terrible news, and how much you must be hurting.

I only wish there was something physical I could actually do to help you right now to lessen your pain.

You will be in my thoughts much, today.

E.M

I am very sorry, especially for YOU because I know you must be hurting as much as Penny is hurting but your hurt is ongoing whereas Penny will soon be able to join Cooper and her brief sejourn on earth will have been touched by two angels who let her discover love and joy after the darkness she had known.

I too had two pets (cats) and when one died, the other one showed no emotions for the first ten days and was unusually aloof (I wonder if he thought we had taken his brother away from him) After that he became very sick ;he had always been with his brother and just couldn't handle the separation. Whenever I looked at him, he looked as if he had been crying his eyes out. Though I wasn't supposed to let him out but I would because he so wanted to go and just look around the yard for his brother then he would come back in feeling worse and ready to die it seemed. Poor Penny responded according to what she had first learned: when something hurts, be on the defensive.
Still, if Penny had been able to absorb it all and keep it inside, I bet it would have hurt you as much to see her so despondent and wanting nothing else but to be with Cooper. I think it's Moose Mom who wrote about her Alex who died 5 weeks after her Butch passed, this would probably have been Penny's fate too.

I know how it must feel to think of her at the shelter but know that given the unfortunate cir%%stances she would be just as miserable anywhere on earth right now.
Her troubles will soon end and you can be proud of what you did for her. Bless you
I know how hard this must be. Penny was very fortunate to have had you give her her only chance in life, she was blessed to know Cooper
Forgive me for the old cliché but: It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Courage and take care of yourself, you are precious.

Well V-Angel,
I am so sorry to hear from you especially about the sad news about Penney...Sometimes abuse just has been too horrific and there is nothing anyone, even you..the most amazing dog caregiver on this earth can do for her ...I am sorry and my heart and prayers are with you.

My sister had a dog once that had to be put down because of agression, she almost killed one of her other dogs, and it was still so very sad, it isn't their fault, they don't understand. But it was the same situation, to protect her other dogs and anyone else for that matter it had to be done. She is a very loved dog pal and will always be...I am glad to hear from you but certainly not for this reason, I was hoping all was well with your dog clan...Peace to you my friend Tory, Hrudey's Mom, (still hanging around here)

Thanks Everyone,
I had to stop coming because everytime someone else lost a pet, I grew more and more convinced something was going to happen to one of my cats.

I still miss Copper horribly and this is making it even worse of course. Penny's not gone yet, she's on "death row". I can't get her back now even if I wanted to because she's officially been deemed vicious.

So I'm living in this tourtured state right now with the 3 month anniversary of Copper passing combined with knowing Penny is going to spend the last 10 days of her life locked up in a kennel with no one allowed to walk or even pet her. It would be a lot easier if they could have just put her down right away. But because of these stupid laws, they have to do 2 vet checks to make sure she doesn't have rabies or anything even though she's had all her shots. If I would have had a full bottle of dog tranquillers, I would have just done it at home.

I'm really grateful to have this dufus golden retriever Marley. He's been a furry ball of sunshine over the past 24 hours.

I want to go visit her, but that would just make me feel even more guilty. I just wish it were over with.

I, too, am thankful that you were couragious enough to adopt a furbaby with severe behavioral issues, that would have certainly been destroyed if you had not been willing to give it a try. These type of furbabies very rarely get a second chance. I am also very sad that you are facing this so soon after losing Copper...that, too, makes it even harder. I'm so glad that you were able to open your heart to another furbaby in need, Marley, who is a perfect example of how wonderful a companion a shelter baby can be! There is something that is bothering me, though, that I just can't figure out? Why on earth did you take her to the animal shelter for euthanasia? Why not take her to your vet who would have not only done it right away, but much more humanely?

There are dog bite laws in this county, so no vet could have put her down right away. It was 3 pm on a Saturday and my vet wasn't open, others would have asked questions. For that matter, my vet would have figured it out because Penny has to be on tranquilizers before she can go in. Any vet who would have put her down would have been breaking the law. And I knew when I went to the ER, a report would probably be made to the Health Department anyway. She's been reported before for biting me. They didn't apply vicious dog laws to her because of her history and because she's my dog. But they did apply the 10 day law which means she has to have 2 vet checks. This time I told them to go ahead and label her vicious so I couldn't change my mind.

She had been acting vicious for two weeks before she did this. This night before she almost attacked my 16 year old son. I could have kept her at home for the 10 day waiting period, but then I'm running the risk of someone getting hurt even worse. The only way I can possibly have her put down right away is to then have her head cut off and shipped to the State Health Department which would cost about $700. I just can't afford that since we still haven't even paid off all Copper's vet bills.

It all boils down to a legal issue. I understand how this could bother you. It's tearing me up that it has to be this way. I really don't have any better options.

Now that I've been thinking about it more, why on earth would you ask such a question? If you had read my first post I did say that she was on hold because of dog bite laws. Your words of finding a more humane way have been tearing at me.

I knew that she would be put on a 10 day when I took her there. I knew that no vet could put her down without breaking the law. I also had to get to the ER because my arm was ripped open. AS SOON AS I SET FOOT IN THAT ER, SHE WAS GOING TO BE PUT ON A 10 DAY HOLD. Better that I should surrender her myself while the shelter was still open than to have to wait until the next day. I took her there with blood soaked bandages on a ripped open arm. My husband had to drag me out of there to get to the ER.

I am racked with guilt knowing that she spent last night there during a thunderstorm and she is terrified of those. Every minute of the past day I have had to restrain myself from going to see her. I have been going over and over in my mind what I should have done differently so she wouldn't have attacked me. I feel like a failure for not being able to help her. I feel like a failure for not being able to save Copper. As much as she's been through the last thing I ever wanted for her was for her final days to be like this and it's killing me.

The situation I'm in is unlike any I've ever been in before. Knowing she's there alone and scared and not being able to help her is worse then just letting her go. When people come in to look for animals to adopt, she has a big sign on her kennel saying to leave her alone. She won't understand. She loves people so much. She'll see all the other dogs get walks and she won't understand. If there would have been another way, I would have not only done it for her but also for MYSELF because this is the worst kind of hell.

V-Angel, please don't feel guilty:you did all you could, even an angel from heaven could not have done more. And you have NO reason to feel guilty. That you feel terrible is because you are such a wonderful person and want the best for all yours. You have this great pain and even physical marks of the too heavy load you have tried to carry. I have put myself in your place, how I would have felt if my baby was locked up in isolation for his last 10 days?-- yes, it may be worse over there than at home with you but the reality is that the only one who could soothe Penny is Cooper, it's just like when my dear cat lost his buddy and couldn't see anything worth living for at that time. We can not bring back the ONE they want so badly. This is the hardest. If Penny returned, she would have hoped to find Cooper and been shattered again. Her last days would not really be that much better,
without Cooper, all she wants to do is die. Perhaps she didn't even care about the thunderstorm -- for me, mourning my soulmate-cat (5 months to this day): sometimes I indulge in the thought of how my sorrow could be relieved... So it is with Penny. And I do not think it is any easier on you. I feel more sorry for you,you are going through hell on earth, you have done your very best for everyone concerned and placed yourself last. You have done more than anyone else ever could. Now you MUST think of yourself too, you have to care for your own inner child who carries way too much of the woes of the world on her shoulders. Explain to her that even if the roles were reversed you would understand that there are no options other than what has been done. Life is sometimes hell, we all get a piece of it over our lives. They say that for every great joy, there is great sorrow. And for each great sorrow there will be a joy to equal it. Hang in there.

V-angel

Oh this is so hard. I'm so sorry for you and for Penny. I'm sorry you are back here again. I remember when Copper passed, I was so hopping she would find a way through it. She was just too damaged from her abuse. You did the best you could and you and Copper gave her some years of love, hold onto that.

What you are going through is terrible, I wish you didn't have to. My heart goes out to you. You couldn't let her hurt someone else....she wouldn't want that either. She didn't mean to hurt anyone ever, she was just afraid of being hurt again. While what you are doing is the right thing, it doesn't feel good. I so wish I could help you more than a few poor words.

I'm so glad you have Marley.

I'm holding both you and Penny in my thoughts.

I'm so sorry to hear about Penny and sorry that you are back here, so soon after losing your Copper. I know how much you love Penny and how badly you wanted things to work with her. Its not your fault though. Maybe she has a neurological problem that was causing her to be more aggressive? If thats the case, the it will be a blessing to her to be freed from that pain. Please don't in any way blame yourself for this. As for being on "death row" for 10 days, that is not your choice either and you have to comply with the laws.

Please try to take comfort in the fact that Penny will be with Copper soon and they will both be happy to be together again. I know how much she missed him, same as you do.

Vizsla-Angel, I was so sorry to read your story. Your kind words helped me so much when I first came to this site, so soon after my Caesar. And now I wish I could say something to help you through this. Let me say that you did *absolutely nothing* wrong. You didn't have any choice as to the legal procedures that must be done, and it doesn't matter where you would have went, either the vet or the shelter. So, please don't allow anyone to let you fall into that guilt trip. Laws are enforced to protect us, but unfortunatly, there aren't laws to also protect our hearts from unbearable heartbreak, either from outside (legalities) or within (your own compassion). You are Penny's "Number One", and you always will be, no matter what. There's a silver cord between you and she~a cord formed by pure love~ that will never be broken, whether you are physically with her or not, earth-bound or otherwise. You got your Penny as a poor abused doggie and gave her a life that she could have never even imagined. To be with you, I'm sure was heaven for her. Hold on to that knowledge. To be with you as she was, for whatever time you had, be it years or weeks, she would have gladly traded these 10 days. Please hold on, Vizsla-Angel. I am, and will be, thinking of you. Please take care. And please talk to us. *hugs*

Today it hit my husband. He was angry at her for what she did, but now he's feeling what I am. He said he understands and thinks maybe she's learned her lesson. We know that's just wishful thinking. We can't get her back now anyway without going to court.

I wish I could just go down there and feed her some sort of poison to get it over with. Then they would have to deal with the autopsy costs instead of me. I can't stand the thought of living like this for 8 more days. Everytime I think about her, it rips through my gut. I need this to be over!

What does your husband mean by "maybe she's learned her lesson"?

It's just wishful thinking that, after spending 2 nights in the shelter, Penny would suddenly realize how good she has it and decide to never bite again. If that were the case, she'd be home.

Penny spent the first 4 1/2 years of her life in an abusive home. The people who surrendered her to the rescue I got her from admitted to things like putting her in her crate when she acted up and poking her with a metal rod until she calmed down. If that's the kind of thing they ADMIT to, we can only imagine what they're not admitting to! (They gave her up because they just had a baby and were worried about it getting bit.)

I gave Penny everything I could to help her get over her fear aggression. She saw a certified dog behaviorist with a master's degree in animal behavior. We worked on behavior modification, disipline and training daily. She bloomed into a wonderful dog. Until Copper died. Even though we continued doing everything we were supposed to be doing, she slid backwards. She started trying to attack the cats. Then she became possesive of my bedroom and snarled and snapped at us when we came in. Then she started attacking the door when we closed it. Last week she almost attacked Mike when he came in. She started snapping and snarling at my 16 year old son recently and Friday night when I wasn't home he thought she was going to attack him. And then when she attacked me Saturday, that was the end of it.

I called the shelter today to see if I could drop off some of her favorite treats just for her and they said ok but they didn't want me to see her because they thought it would be upsetting to her. (Good thing, we'd both get too upset.) The office manager wanted to talk to me some more anyway. I took Marlely along for emotional support. We talked for about 25 minutes and it was pretty much the same conclusion. She's going to be put down next week Tuesday.
The manager was very supportive. She told me pretty much the same thing, that she couldn't think of anything else to do either. She'd seen Penny a few times that day and Penny's behavior was very irratic with her too. She was in tears right along with me and that helped a lot.

It was busy and we had to sit there for an hour waiting for her. Marley sat around acting like "success story of the month" which was pretty funny and made things a lot less painful. This guy was trying to finalize his adoption and his 2 & 4 year old sons were with him getting impatient, that was the hold up. So I let them walk Marley around the office so they could "practice" for when they got their new dog. So there's Marley, getting ordered around by a couple little kids- and listening! I was so proud of him. And honestly, it just made me feel like a little less of a failure to have a dog that can be walked by a 4 year-old and sits when a 2 year-old tells him too.

I went back and found what I posted on January 3 which was 3 days after Copper died:

Oh Dear V...my heart is just breaking for you, there are no words, you are in my prayers...this is just hell on earth, you do not have to explain yourself to anyone especially us..here on this site...You have done and I am sure will always do the utmost in caring for your gang of fur pals, I would trust you with any of my own, your words helped me when I was first here. I so wish I could help you now, I am glad that you met the mgr and they were emotional too, it helps at least to know you're not alone in this and give you some support...I have full faith in you, you will come through, its just hell right now....I am praying that you and your love bug Marley find peace you deserve right now. Tory, Hrudey's Momma

Sweet V-Angel, my heart goes out to you.

I, too, adopted an abused dog who couldn't even be touched without a snarl or growl. I remember how the first "trainer" we hired was furious with us; she said "How could you adopt this dog when there are so many good dogs out there?" As if her abuse made her a bad dog. She insisted we should get rid of her, that she should be put to sleep. So we got rid of the trainer.

After hundreds and hundreds (thousands?) of dollars of vet visits and behavioral therapy at UC Davis, she has transformed into a different dog. There are still, and will always be, major precautions we take with her that we wouldn't have to with non fear-biters, but that doesn't matter. The point is, I understand the depth of the love you feel for your dog, and that love takes on a different dimension when you have saved her from an unimaginable past and sheltered her from a world that has been so cruel to her. When you have worked so hard to earn her trust and to keep her warm during those thunderstorms. There ought to be more people like you.

I can't imagine the pain you are going through. What acute, unbearable torture. Your sweet girl, you must be beside yourself with grief and agony. And your loss is still obscure, since you can still see her...I'm so, so, so sorry.

Just know that you are in my thoughts and my heart is with you during this agonizing time.

Thanks everyone... Your kind words all mean so much to me right now. This really is hell! If I could just mourn her - fine! I know how to do that. There were terrible thunderstorms last night and I kept waking up to help her, then remembering she's not here, then thinking of her alone and afraid. Then I'd go back to sleep and have nightmares about her. Wake up from loud thunder again and go through the whole process all over again. It was horrible.

Today I went to my vet and got her a prescription for tranquilizers and dropped them off at the shelter. She'll get them anytime there's a slight chance of a T-storm. That makes me feel a little better. One of the people who works there told me that Penny snarls at her, but she carries around Penny's special treats. She'll ask Penny if she wants a "bit" and Penny turns back into her usual self. They're all doing everything they can for her. They also like my plan of hiring ninjas to go after her first owners!

The shelter has been really nice to me. I feel a little better when I'm there because I'm close to Penny, even though I can't see her. They let me play with a walk a bunch of different dogs while I was there today. They even asked my opinion about a couple of dogs. My husband thinks I'm going to end up volunteering there. Maybe I will... Some of those dogs just need a little bit of basic obedience training.

Oh my goodness, what you have been through.....

I have few words of wisdom to pass along because I just had to say good bye to my sweet cat less than a week ago & I am still reeling with my own loss. But I had to write in because your situation sounds so much like what I went through when I was......maybe 18, 19 years old (this would be about 20 yrs. ago). My stepdad had our beautiful big dog Brutus put down for behavioral issues as well. He didn't tell my Mom & me ahead of time. Brutus was a 3 year old, big dog, looked like a big black bear, a very family-oriented dog who only took to us. When my parents found out the house they were renting was sold, they had relatively little time to find another place to live that would take a big dog like Brutus. They also had a feisty dachshound & she was OK for the landlords but not Brutus. Brutus had a tendency to protect himself & his family, which is why he bit. Bottom line, his loyalty to us got him in trouble. Like you, my stepdad's big fear was that Brutus would harm someone else. So re-adoption was never a realistic option.

My mom & I I have never forgotton the pain we felt losing our 3-yr old buddy but we have grown to understand why my stepdad did what he did. Many years have passed since this happened. Even after so many years, the pain has subsided, but not the love.

Please continue to concentrate on good thoughts of Penny. She was lucky to have such a loving mom. She deserves the best, just like my Brutie.

Please take care of yourself.

oh my i am so sorry. i cant even imagine what you are going thru. i am glad that the shelter is working with you on this. no doubt in my mind penny loves you with all her heart.
penny had such a horrible start to her life, but you stepped in and made it better for her. and i know she thanks you for that.
i dont know if i missed the part about her being at the shelter for 10 days? is it law where you live that they have to be quarratined(sp?) even if you have proof of vaccines? would your vet have just put her to sleep if you requested it?
sorry to ask so many questions..i just didnt know if it would be easier for your heart for that to have happened. or if it was required by law.
i know that you say the shelter is putting her down on tuesday. would you be able to be there for her while its being done to say goodbye and to have closure? or did you choose not to , to begin your healing process?
i feel so bad for you. please know i wish i could give you a hug, and take all this pain away for you..but the most i can do is send cyber hugs to you.
i will light a candle on tues for you and penny.
just know she loves you and she knows you love her with all your heart.
take care
michelle

All this support means so much to me everyone. Yes, it is a legal thing that no one can put her down for 10 days even though she's had her shots.

I slept a little better last night since there was no thunderstorm. Knowing that she's getting her favorite treats all the time is helping too. The cats are coming to my rescue. I had 4 out of the 5 laying on me last night while I was watching TV. It's the same thing they did when Copper died.

My 14 yearold son hasn't gone to school in the past 2 days - since he found out. He was at his dad's when this happened. If Penny could have lived alone just with him, she could have lived to an old age. He was the only person she ever trusted 100%. Again, Marley's been the big love bucket. My son just wants to stay in his room most of the time. Marley goes in there, lays on his bed with him and watches TV.

6 more days until Penny is finally at peace...

vizsla-angel,
I can't even imagine what you must be going through... Although I do not have any experience of putting any of my previous puppies to sleep (PTS is not common in Korea) or of having big aggressive dogs, I know it should be an intensely agonozing time, especially with the date coming up closer.
As all other friends here said, please know that you have done everything you possibly could and Penny will understand and be a happier girl in heaven.
I will keep you, your family and Penny in my prayer!

v-angel

I can't imagine how this is hurting you, the wait, the "countdown". Please try to think of it in a positive light though. Five more days until Penny will be with her beloved Copper where you know that she will be healthy and happy and he will watch over her for their stay at the bridge.

Have you considered contacting an animal communicator? Maybe it would help to have one that could talk to Penny and tell her what is happening, maybe it would help her to not be scared at being at the shelter and to know she's going to see Copper. And maybe it would help you to know that she truly is ok.

Dear Vizsla-Angel,

I'm pretty new to this site, and I've just read all your posts about Penny, and I'm sitting here crying. I am so mad at her first humans right now, I just can't say it. How could anyone abuse a dog or a cat like that (and like you said, those are just the things those awful people admitted to). Abused animals, abused children, they get the most rotten start in life, and it's not their fault, it's not! It's just not fair!!

And these laws -- they have to be looked at again, don't they? Laws shouldn't make wonderful people like you, who want to give animals a much-needed second chance, feel this horrible and guilty. It's not you, V-Angel, it's the laws that are wrong. You did everything you could for Penny, and on some level I have to believe she knows it, and when she's gone (that dreaded day, my heart just goes out to you, I can't stop crying), she'll know fully how much you loved her. She'll know that just as surely as she'll find Copper again, and there will be no more of those darn thunderstorms!

I can't write anymore, I'm so upset for you. Please know that I'm thinking of you and you and your husband and Penny are in my prayers. And Copper has no need of my prayers, but is in them anyway, too!

-- Michelle K. (Lucy's mom)

Dear V,

I'm so sorry V, so sorry. For you and your family, of course, but mostly for Penny. I keep thinking how tragic it is that she had a safe, loving home, and she's too damaged to enjoy it. May the people who did that to her meet with the same treatment, in omnipotent hands.

Thoughts and prayers,
Dayna

Funny thing about that...
I do a radio show at school and the show before my is a talk show. This past Wednesday, she HAD an animal communicator on and I was supposed to bring Penny into the station. So when I got there 5 minutes after my show was supposed to start and broke down in tears, she stayed and communicated with Penny or whatever you call it. She just needed a picture, so I showed her one I had posted her. Penny told her being put down will be a relief. And she wanted something with my smell on it, so I cut up a comforter that was waiting to be washed and sewed her a smaller blanket for her kennel. It was weird that the communicator said Penny's vision was funny. I thought about that one and realized that Penny's on tranquilizers... And she also said Penny said all she has from home is her food. That would be the special treats I brought her. Strange! It helped a little.

What's really helping the most is going down to the shelter. They're closed on Wednesdays, but I was there yesterday. I brought her the blanket I made her. Then I took some of the dogs out. This one dog Buddy has been there for 3 weeks. He's such a sweetheart, but no one's adopted him yet! He's really skinny but that mostly because he's a boxer mix. Nobody wants a skinny dog because they just automatically assume he's been neglected. The other people gave him up because their landlord said they couldn't have him anymore.

So anyhow, I was playing with him yesterday and noticed he needed a bath. The shelter was closing up and I can't put him back myself because I can't go back by the dogs while Penny is there. So I'm sitting there waiting, saying, "If someone doesn't put Buddy away, I'm taking him home and giving him a bath!" Next thing I know, Buddy's in the backseat of my car on an overnight foster care!!! The Animal Control officer was sitting right next to me and when he told them he'd pick up Buddy and bring him back if I had a problem, it was a done deal.

I wish I could keep him... Here's a picture of him in "jail". If anyone lives around Milwaukee or Chicago and is looking for a really sweet dog who's very well behaved, BUDDY NEEDS YOU!!!

Well, I ended up adopting Buddy. I guess everyone saw that coming except for me. I posted that in New Beginnings.

I got it cleared with the shelter that we can be there on Tuesday when they put Penny down. I'm glad I'll get to see her one last time. And she won't be with strangers when she goes.

When I took Buddy to see the vet today, it was the first time I got to talk to her since Penny went in. She knew about it because I had to get the tranquilzers. She told me that she didn't see how I could have possibly done anything different or anything more to help her.

I don't know if I mentioned that I got an email back from Vizsla Rescue where I got her from. They thanked me for trying so hard and giving Penny that chance to know that people can be loving. They said that sometimes you just can't help a dog that's been hurt so much.

It helps a little that everyone keeps saying these things. But I still find myself racking my brain, trying to think of what I should have done differently. Or I go right back to missing Copper so much!!

I HATE BEING IN LIMBO!!! I WANT THE NEXT 4 DAYS TO BE OVER WITH!!!

V Angel it must be so so hard. I'm glad you adopted Buddy, I'm sure Cooper sent him your way at this time, for this and that he will comfort you, you need
very special love too for all the love you have been given. When you are an old lady, you will think of all the things you have done for these angels and will be so proud of who you have been. I don't know you, but of all the people in the world, known or unknown, you are on my top ten list of who I would most like to be like. I'm not there yet...but you show me the way.
With 100%admiration, I will be thinking of you, especially on Tuesday, meanwhile I hope you get lots of positive waves to help you and yours along. Sincerely and with much admiration for your heart of gold,
Toonie

v-angel, you truly have a heart of gold. in your last post you had me laughing and crying at that same time...i think i saw it coming as soon as you said buddy was in your back seat..i knew then he was staying with you. i am so glad you gave him a home. he is truly a beautiful doggie.
i am glad that you will get to be with penny when she goes. i think your heart needs that closure, even though it is going to be really hard for you, i think it will help your heart and your mind.
you did everything you could for penny, and she loves you for it. she got a second chance at life because of you and your hubby. not to many furbabies get that chance in life. she is a lucky girl to have had you for a mommy. do know that cooper is waiting for her at the bridge and he will take good care of her. i have already requested to my"girls" to look for her when she gets there and i know in my heart they will help her and love her..(only two cats i have ever known that love dogs so much, actually i think they thought they were dogs and not cats..)
please know you are in my heart and i have been thinking of you everyday. and i will continue you to keep you in my prayers and my thoughts..
much love
michelle

It's bad enough that Penny's in the shelter. My husband, kids, and I didn't want a great dog like Buddy to have to stay there any more too. Honestly, the only thing I should get credit for is trying to improve his resume so he'd get adopted faster. Buddy's the little Cookie Monster who won us over!

Buddy is the easiest rescue dog I've ever had so far! I sort of feel guilty about that. Usually when I take them in, something needs to be "fixed". He needs to learn to walk on a leash a little better and come back when he's called before he can go running in the field with Marley. And gain some weight. So there's this part of me that's thinking, why did I adopt this nearly perfect dog when there are others out there who need someone with my experience? I have to keep reminding myself that apparently, no one else was going to figure him out since he was there so long. And HE picked ME out! Besides that, I've got my hands full with Marley's chewing. And I think the rest of the family is emotionally exhausted after what just happened.

In the mean time, I'm still going through this gut wrecking agony over my poor girl. Thinking of her there all alone is horrible. I'm getting better about keeping my mind off of it. There haven't been any more thunderstorms. That helps. Once she is finally at peace and I can lay her to rest next to Copper, I'll finally be able to grieve her. It will be a relief not thinking of her there, but then the loss will be real.

This really sucks.

Thank you so much everyone. Your words really do mean so much to me right now. I wish I could offer more condolences to everyone else on their posts like I used to. Right now I feel like I'm in some sort of a tail spin.

Dear V...well well well...I knew it, I knew Buddy was yours, how wonderful for you, I bet Marley loves him too. I agree with Toonie...I wish I had your drive and strength, and your mission, its really admirable and something that I want to be like too.....I am in tears and happy all at the same time and I need a drink. You are in my thoughts and prayers, as well as Angel Penney, everyone is right she will be with Copper her main love...that is a nice thing to remember. Peace to you, Tory, Hrudey's Momma

You all are so sweet with your kind words about me - thank you. It really isn't an act of sainthood though. Both of my sons (14 & 16), my husband, and I have a deep love for animals. Not being able to save Penny was difficult. But at least one good thing has happened. We saved Buddy. It would be harder for us to know that we have room in our home for an unwanted dog than to not get another. We cannot and will not see it as an infringement on our love or grieving for Copper or Penny. Buddy & Marley are a great source of comfort to all of us right now. That comfort is bonding them to us.

Part of why this may be easier for us than it may be for some is because we have loved and lost several dogs and cats together. When a new family member comes along, we don't look think of them taking the place of or expect them to be like the other was. The sad thing about going through the process so many times is that we've gotten "good" at it.

Buddy & Marley aren't dividing our love for Copper & Penny -- they're multiplying it!

PS to Tory: At least this one has short fur!

I think you did a good thing by taking Penny in, but I wish you would have thought it through before taking her to the shelter after this happened. Most places have dog bite laws that are just like yours. The exception where I live is that if your dog has had its rabies shot it doesn't have to be kept for any period of time. If something like that had happened to me and I had that bad of an injury, I don't think I would take the time to load the dog that had just bitten me into the car and drive it to the shelter to drop it off before going to the ER. Knowing the vet was closed, and knowing what the dog bite law would mean for her at the shelter, I would have just thrown her out in the yard, or locked her in a bedroom until I got home and dealt with it then. I know you wanted to do it right then so you wouldn't change your mind, but waiting until Monday would have been best for Penny. You could have taken her (or your husband so they couldn't see your injuries) to a vet that you hadn't been to before and just lied. You could have told them that she was an aggressive dog that you had rescued that had been aggressive to your other animals and that she was now showing aggression toward your kids and you were afraid of what might happen. There isn't anything to report then and she could have been put down right then. At the hospital you could have lied, too. You could have said you were trying to help a stray dog and it bit you then ran off. That gives an explanation of the injury and no animal for a target. I wouldn't think they would much question that story since you are an animal trainer. It would only make sense that you would try to help a dog in need. I'm just saying that I don't think Penny's best interest is what was made most important here and I think it is sad that she is in the situation she is in when it could have been different with a small amount of creativity. I don't disagree with your choice to need to put her to sleep I just think if you need to do something like that it should be given more thought so it would be as easy on Penny as possible. Has no one else had these thoughts about this? Maybe I am just over emotional about my own recent loss, but I would really think these ideas would be pretty obvious?
I also find it strange that you are so up beat about a new dog when Penny isn't even gone yet. I'm glad you rescued Buddy, but I can't even manage a smile right now and I'm no stranger to pet loss either. It all just seems so strange to me
Dakota's dad

Dakota's Dad,
I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I'm sure you're in quite a bit of pain right now, which could be the reason why you feel so strongly about all this. Maybe you wouldn't have taken the time to load up the dog who had just bitten you, but I did. My husband was with me. The first thing we had to do was to stop the bleeding long enough to figure out if I needed to get stiches. That gave us some time to think about what to do. Even though he thought I should go to the ER first, we made that decision together. This wasn't just a bite. It was an attack. She grabbed my arm and wouldn't let go. I considered taking photos and posting them, but that would probably be very upsetting for a lot of people here.

If I had lied and said it was a stray, the police and animal control would waste all kinds of time looking for a dog that didn't exist. If they found a dog matching the description of what I gave them, the owners of that dog would be in serious trouble. If they didn't find one, I would have to get rabies shots. In the mean time, they would also alert all the vets in the area. So if we tried to put Penny down, questions would come up about that. And then there's always the chance of filing a false police report. We had already thought about that too. They DON'T give you a choice. All of that will happen. Lying would just put us in a worse position.

I've been on this forum for 3 months since my Copper died of cancer on 12/31/06. You'll notice on the posts that some people remember me from then. So they know me and know how I am. I rescue dogs and cats that no one wants. That's who I am and what I do. And it is different from the majority of people here who need to grieve for a long time before they can even think about getting a new furbaby.

"Animal trainer" is a very weak word for what I actually do. Yes, I can train them to sit, heel, fetch, and even hunt. What I do is teach them. I teach them that people can be loving and caring, that they won't be abandoned, and that no one is ever going to beat them again. So what you must have missed is the overwhelming feelings of guilt and failure that I have right now. The only thing that was helping to pull me out of that was teaching the shelter dogs to walk on their leashes better and watching them get adopted out. Then there's poor little Buddy. His coat was dull, every bone in his body was showing, he had already been there for 3 weeks, and no one wanted him. Thinking of any dog being that unwanted is painful for me too. No it's not as painful as losing Copper or Penny. But at least I could save him. I'm being freed from my self-imposed hell of feeling like a complete failure. So yes, I am happy about that.

Dakota's dad, try walking a mile in VAngel's shoes, you might change your mind after the first few steps.

well, your reply only leaves me more upset.

"If I had lied and said it was a stray, the police and animal control would waste all kinds of time looking for a dog that didn't exist."
A small price to pay. If you aren't willing to inconvenience someone for Penny's sake that is really sad.

"If they found a dog matching the description of what I gave them, the owners of that dog would be in serious trouble."
This is quite a stretch don't you think?

" If they didn't find one, I would have to get rabies shots."
Then so be it! If I had to take a couple of needles to do best for my dogs I would. It just sounds to me like your only willing to do what is convenient for you which only solidifies my thoughts of why Penny is where she is. It was the easiest thing to do.

"In the mean time, they would also alert all the vets in the area. So if we tried to put Penny down, questions would come up about that."
This is just bologna. They don't do any such a thing.

"I rescue dogs and cats that no one wants. That's who I am and what I do. And it is different from the majority of people here who need to grieve for a long time before they can even think about getting a new furbaby."
I understand that you rescue animals, I'm glad about that. All of mine are rescues too and some are very difficult cases. I'm not saying that it is strange to get another right away because I have done that too. What I think is strange is how you seem so unaffected by what is happening to Penny. It is sad how she seems so quickly forgotten when she isn't even gone yet.

"I teach them that people can be loving and caring, that they won't be abandoned, and that no one is ever going to beat them again."
But you did! you took her to the worst place an animal can imagine and left her there. What do you call that?

You can continue to toot your own horn and have your fan club worship you and "want to be just like you" but all I have heard from you is how hard it is on you, how much you want it over for your sake, what about poor Penny? I haven't heard much about your concerns for the living hell she is enduring. You are too busy patting yourself on the back! It's all great when you're soaking up the glory of being the hero who rescues them, but I see it is a different story when it matters the most.

"Dakota's dad, try walking a mile in VAngel's shoes, you might change your mind after the first few steps"
I would never change my mind on this! Like I said, I'm glad she rescues animals. I'm more glad that she rescues the hard cases. No one ever wants them. I don't disagree with her choice to euthanize Penny. I disagree with how things have been handled because Penny is now left to suffer for 10 horrible days before facing her death. I think it its disgusting and I'm shocked that no one else here seems to care about Penny.

Am I sensitive because I just lost my buddy, maybe, but I could easily be in this same situation with one of my own rescues that has aggression problems and I assure you I would do whatever I had to do to ensure a peaceful, stress free end for my troubled guy. That is the responsibility we take on when we rescue them. Especially if we know beforehand what we are getting into. Haven't they already suffered enough.

Yes. I agree with you 100%, and I couldn't have said it better myself !! I was just trying really hard to bite my tongue on it, and I hope it is the same for others. Surely we aren't the only ones who see a problem with this story !

I’ve been reading this thread for some time now, but not responding, mainly because I actually felt very much the same as both Dakota’s Dad (and I’m sorry for your current loss, too) and Kim seem to. To my mind, it’s the animals’ needs and welfare first and foremost and I don’t think that’s been the case here, and I’ve also been surprised that I seemed to be the only one who was viewing this situation in a different light. I remember a time when I first joined LS where there seemed to be much more discrimination shown in issues affecting animals’ well-being all ‘round and in fact, that was instrumental in my joining a group of people that really seemed to put their welfare on an equal or better footing to humans’ concerns.

Sorry V, but had this been my situation, I would have done things differently, starting with more treatment(s) for Penny, rather than just relying on training alone. I know there are quite a number of other avenues one can take to address aggression, but can’t remember even hearing about any or many mainstream/allopathic tests &/or treatments being utilized for her, much less any alternative methodologies which often have even greater good effect. In fact, I’m not impressed with this behaviorist, either, as it seems that even she didn’t suggest seeking other avenues to deal with Penny’s real grief over Copper and I would have expected a behaviorist to be fully aware of how grief can impact an animal’s behavior, much less an already-aggressive one. Any really good professional ought to be willing to refer you to other modalities or providers if their methods just aren’t working well enough. If cognitive behavior therapy doesn’t work greatly, by itself, in humans who are grieving, why anyone would expect any different results with animals is beyond me.

I’ve spoken many times here on the benefits, ease of use and affordability of flower essences, as just one example, and mentioned that there are formulas for grief, for both humans and animals. There are even quite a number of animal communicators who have had wonderful success with getting to the bottom of animals’ aggressive tendencies, not only by helping them with being heard and finding ways and means to address the animal’s concerns, fears, etc, but also from offering other energy healing treatments which have in some cases even cured physical, emotional and other diseases and conditions. And these are just a few examples. Since I value animals’ lives as much as I do, just as I already did do for my girl as seemed warranted at any given time, I would have at least tried these kinds of modalities for Penny, were she mine.

The fact that she mentioned vision problems to the one communicator you did try (after the fact) would have rung warning bells in my head, as I also think it ought to have done with this communicator and you, but didn’t! I’d already wondered if Penny could have had a tumor or some other condition that was at least in part making her react aggressively, and this could be a clue which should have been ‘dug into’ more. If an animal can’t see properly, they may become even more upset and afraid, but this never seems to have even occurred to anybody. No one asked her if she’d had these vision problems before her attack….unbelievable. I would have been trying to find out exactly WHY she’d been acting so aggressively…but then, I would have also been trying to find answers to these important questions long before anything had gotten to this point anyway. I also know that my rescue friend here has had some pretty hard cases, herself, through the years, but has never euthanized any dogs strictly for aggression, nor have any of her adopters. I also would have been asking WHY she would be feeling it was a “relief” to die, as this may have led to more answers, too. Leaving that answer as is just sounds far too ‘pat’ to me.

I also can’t agree with training dogs to hunt, for the sake of human desire for amusement and find this really distasteful!

And all logistics aside, my first tendency towards any incident or pattern such as this would still have been to try and protect and save harm or further distress to my furbaby, consequences to me being a distant second and only insofar as it would affect my ability to take care of them. So even if there was no cure possible for Penny (which I’m not convinced of yet), there is no way I wouldn’t have tried to find a way around leaving her in a shelter for so long. Nor would I not be there with her every minute I could, just because someone else thinks that’s ‘better’ and particularly if I’d been the one to put her there in the first place. I’d have to agree that this does sound like abandonment to me, too, since abandonment means to give up, forsake, desert.

However, my own viewpoints being a moot point unless you’re willing to go to court to save her life, the question remains….what have you learned from this situation and what would you do differently if there were a problem with another furbaby?

i'm usually a low key gal,
though tonight i am going to voice my thought on this.

we do what we can for our furbabies. whatever the case it may be.
i thought this forum was to help each other with our grief? not to pick someone's choice or grief apart.
i am very uncomfortable with the way v-angel was treated in her choice to do what she had to do for her sake , her family's sake, and most of all penny's sake. so be it.

i really came here to this site for comfort and help in my grief and all i just saw is how people can pick apart someones choice or judge them , like how v-angel has been .not liking it at all.
now my question to anyone is are you going to judge me when i tell you that when poohbear collapsed from the tumor bursting in her tummy, that the emergency vet hospital told me it would cost 3,000.00 to even make an attempt to save her if she could have been saved..and they wouldnt touch her until i paid? that it was also my CHOICE to for go it because i didnt even have a penny to my name to even attempt to try? that finances played a role in whether to try and save her or let her suffer in extreme pain and have her die anyway?? huh? huh?

i am really upset about this. and i will say no one knows what they would do in an extreme emergency like that. dont judge until you've walked a mile in someone elses shoes.. and people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones..

sorry to be so blunt its just hurtful ya know...now i'm going back to my reserved self...

V,

MY heart really aches for you. And I think if you start from the premise that everybody who enters this forum has a great love and empathy for the four-legged innocents in our midst, and is suffering the loss of one, it's understandable that, like you, they hate to see Penny lose her battle for life and peace. I'm leaning in the direction of thinking there is no peace for her in this life. Heavily medicated? Muzzeled? NO!

But, I do have one thought. When my Mother died in February we were looking for a worthy cause to donate her memorials to, and my brother found a website for a sanctuary for unadoptable, unhomeable animals. I could get that info from him if it seems in any way reasonable to you.

Meanwhile my heart is keeping vigil with you, and my prayers and meditations are full of pleadings that Penny's and your suffering will not have been in vain.

As ever,
Dayna

Michelles Kitty,

I'm so sorry for what happened to Poohbear. I've been there as well, except in my case my precious Mother was willing and able to co-sign a loan for me and my beautiful Birga was able to get the surgery that saved her life.

In Texas, there are a couple of organizations that provide funding for people in such cir%%stances. I have contributed to them in Mack's memory and Mother's, now I will add your baby to my memorials list, if that meets with your approval.

Love to you,
Dayna

I truly didn't want to cause drama here, but as an absolute die hard animal lover, I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't speak my piece about it. For Penny if nothing else, she can't speak for herself. It is as though I hope she knows that someone is fighting for her.

"now my question to anyone is are you going to judge me when i tell you that when poohbear collapsed from the tumor bursting in her tummy, that the emergency vet hospital told me it would cost 3,000.00 to even make an attempt to save her if she could have been saved..and they wouldnt touch her until i paid? that it was also my CHOICE to for go it because i didnt even have a penny to my name to even attempt to try? that finances played a role in whether to try and save her or let her suffer in extreme pain and have her die anyway?? huh? huh?"
I can only assume that you didn't know about the tumor until it was too late and no one expects you to have X-Ray vision, so that is like comparing apples and oranges. Your cat was dying. No question about that in my mind. You absolutely did the kindest thing for her regardless of how much money you had. All those tests would have just made her suffer longer. It doesn't sound like anything could have helped her at that point and I guess you know that if I thought differently I would obviously say so. I can tell you still carry a lot of pain from that decision, but please don't carry guilt about it,you did the right thing.

"no one knows what they would do in an extreme emergency like that. dont judge until you've walked a mile in someone elses shoes.. and people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.."
You're right. I may not know exactly what I would do, but I do know what I absolutely would never do under any cir%%stances and that is leave any animal, and I mean any animal not just my own, at a shelter for any reason ever, ESPECIALLY one that I know and love. I don't fall into the glass house category because I'm not, nor ever would be, in that position.

I'm Glad to know that at least KimR. and Furkidlets' mom have come forward to let me know that Penny is important to them as well. I was begining to lose hope that if 'animal lovers' couldn't rally for poor Penny, the animals of our world are much worse off than I ever thought.

"I remember a time when I first joined LS where there seemed to be much more discrimination shown in issues affecting animals’ well-being all ‘round and in fact, that was instrumental in my joining a group of people that really seemed to put their welfare on an equal or better footing to humans’ concerns."
I guess that is what I expected to find here too. I know that this is supposed to be a place of support for the people who are grieving the loss of their animals, but a persons sensitivity to certain issues does play a role, especially something as contraversial as animal issues when dealing with animal lovers. I too came here for support and instead I am now so upset by not only my loss but now worrying about Penny that I have never even met has only made my pain worse not better. I don't even have the strength to post my own story now. I'm not sure I could find comfort in the words spoken from people who support such a thing anyway. The only comfort I find here is from reading posts from long ago. That much does help quite a bit.

Hi Again V. I noticed the furless dog you chose...ah yep...still battling with the vacuum I know..

I am afraid to say anything here...everyone's emotions are running high, lets try to focus them in a positive way, (of course I care about Penney, who doesn't we wouldn't be on this site if we didn't care, its a terrible position to be in and what do they say about hindsight please),... I agree that this is a place for support, not to judge...I suppose everyone is free to express their own opinions but this was always such a place of support for me, and V and alot of old friends here were there in the bad times for me, lets not lose sight...

I like Dayna's idea of supporting a worthwhile cause, Michelle I completely understand your experience, we had a similar one with Hrudey boy when he was 11 1/2 he had bloat, and we had to authorize surgery, not knowing if it was too late or not, the money not being the main issue but a reality...and of course the suffering, do we cut him open only to lose him in the end...its a terrible place to be, luckily he survived but many don't...anyway, Peace to you all out there, I am sorry for all the pain you are in, and hope you find some comfort somehow. Tory, Hrudey's Momma

Michelle,

Yes, this is a forum mainly for grief (though other issues are also often discussed here and there as well) and that is partly what I've found so distressing in this case. As was mentioned before, there doesn't even seem to be much grief for Penny or the circu*mstances she has been thrown into. How is agreeing with what was done/not done, a help to Penny, or for her sake? I'm afraid I don't understand your comment. I thought we normally supported both the griever AND their animal companions.

Your own situation is entirely different. I hardly see how that can be compared to this. But if we don't discriminate at all, then an animal abuser may as well come on here and expect sympathy for beating his/her pet to death, because now he or she is suffering some grief. What sense would that make?

You're not the only one upset by this. I've been sitting and reading and not sticking up for Penny's situation and speaking for those who can't speak for themselves. So I'm even upset with myself, as I feel I've been betraying my principles which include acting on behalf of all the animals. Perhaps my biggest mistake was not saying what I thought earlier, when more could have possibly been done to avert Penny's impending death, and for that, I am guilty. I do usually try not to judge too much, and often wrestle with things like this for some time before making a decision. But I really saw too many things that concerned me to stay silent any more. This is one way in which Penny's death can have more meaning, by hopefully averting more tragedies like this one.

If I'm living in a glass house, please, tell me what I've done that betrayed or harmed any animal in my care, or otherwise....unless you would rather stay "reserved", which is fine, too.

I also spoke to my shelter friend about aggressive dog behavior, as she's dealt with this in many mistreated animals herself, just to double check a few things. But I don't imagine anyone really wants to know what she said, though she's had much experience and even has aggressive dogs in her care right now, most of whom do get adopted out and don't get returned....so she must be doing something right.

Dakota's Dad,

I'm sorry this has upset you, too. It would never be my intention to drive away people who care as deeply as you seem to from getting the help they need. If it's any consolation, I must thank you for bringing your concerns up, especially when you're new here. Your courage to broach this subject is to be commended, in my eyes. When you said, "I'm not sure I could find comfort in the words spoken from people who support such a thing anyway," I realized that that's also how I've been feeling, along with worrying about Penny. I know my standards are quite high when it comes to animals, but that is also partly the reason I am able to empathize so much with their plights, and so it's something I'm proud of. But I see now that while I can receive praise for this, it's very conditional upon how broadly I might apply those standards. I, for one, would hope you would consider staying, but would also understand if you didn't wish to.

Dakotas Dad,

I concur with FKM, please do stay.

DAyna

Some men are just as sure of the truth of their opinions as others of what they know

Aristotle

What is an Internet Troll/ Forum troll?

* An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

I hope you didn't include me in that !

Mine was a nice message!

first let me say i apologise if i have offended anyone. i am so usually a very reserved person.
i care about everyone on this board, their pain their grief and their love for their animals.
however i do think this is a very extreme situation. and i feel the fur mom did what she had to do regardless.
i care for animals so much, and yes maybe i am still reeling from the pain and grief, that my words may have caused pain and conflict. again i am sorry.
i feel for penny but i also feel for v-angel as she came here for support regardless of the situation and has sort of in my opinon been judged. i am a die hard animal lover also and like i said before no one knows what one would do if not having the time to think things thru clearly in that situation.thats all i was trying to say.
however i do think that we should support and help anyone way we can, and not judge. it tears open wounds that havent even begun to heal.
again i am sorry for my words..and excuse my spelling as it is early here..
take care everyone
i am taking a break from here for awhile..
michelle's kitty.