I'm sick to my stomach, with my grief and with the human race during my grief! I thought I had a decent plan to get through the holidays by breaking up this horrid sorrow with a little bit of 'socializing', something we'd done very little of while tending to Nissa when she was still alive. That plan has suddenly and sickeningly turned very sour and basically ruined any hopes I had for helping myself over these dreaded holidays.

We attended the first Christmas get-together with some folks from my H's workplace last night...and I was sickened by their selfish, insensitive and downright cruel att*itudes about animals. The hosts had 2 dogs, but all hopes of getting to visit at length with these darling boys were immediately dashed. These people don't allow their dogs in the house more than once/week, and then only in the basement. The husband got a new puppy for reasons incomprehensible, since he neglects both dogs terribly, as do even their 2 young boys and teenage daughter. The wife never wanted another dog, period, so will have nothing to do with the new dog. Their first dog was formerly abused badly (by someone else), but seems to be valued mostly because he was trained as a military dog and so has learned to "never bark", be completely docile and obedient and essentially be more of a 'showpiece' than a dog. He was bitten by the newer puppy (both Labs) and had had a bad abcess which the husband "didn't notice for quite a time." He has arthritis starting in one hip. He's a 'model' dog, never complaining...yet still isn't allowed to live inside with his family. The husband complained about the recent $500 vet bill for this abcess.....THEN told us he'd been thinking of getting yet another puppy!! The existing puppy will likely end up getting mauled by their neighbour's dog, who is even MORE neglected, being left outside all day, every day, and has chased the hosts' children many times. The new puppy is already 'escaping' their backyard by crawling into the neighbour's yard (under the fence) to be able to greet the kids when they come home from school...and no one's seeing to fixing the fence. The wife hates the puppy....because he CHEWS things in his boredom. (well, DUH!) Neither of them have ever had a puppy before now, and are clueless about them.

Other guests (all females, yet) spoke of "bagging deer" should they wander through the front yard there; their cats, (who remained nameless throughout the conversation) who had serious health problems (like kidney disease) which weren't being addressed whatsoever; absolute ignorance and no concern about health care; total disregard and disrespect for wildlife, etc.....and on and on it went, through the entire evening. I, on the other hand, had spoken for a brief time (before I realized what kind of a crowd I was in) about our loss of Nissa, the constant and loving care I took of her, her value to us, the 'sacrifices' we made on hers and her brother's behalf through the years. All fell upon deaf ears.

We ended up giving the host heck (in a friendly yet assertive fashion) about his neglect of his dogs and their care, challenging his complaints about the vet bills by 'daring' him to compare their pittance to OURS through the years (my H 'warned' him to "don't even GO there, with US", as we'd put him to total shame!) and tried our best to make him aware of what he needed to be doing for these 2 great dogs, and that they were WORTH spending more time, attention and necessary money on!!

We both left upset....with humans, once again severely disappointing us and all the animals of the world...not wanting to get to know ANY of these people even marginally...both realizing that no matter where we seem to go, who we seem to meet...in the end, it's always the same. When it comes to caring for and about animals...most humans are sorry excuses for life, our feline son's and daughter's lives and deaths are meaningless to them, our grief, and therefore our very selves, are nothing less than weird and totally alien to them, and worst, there seems to be NO hope of ever finding anyone, in person, to whom I can even begin to relate to...when I need that kind of relationship the most right now! I am truly alone and ostrasized in my grief and in my love for the creatures who preceded OUR highly questionable existence here. Humans make me sick (except for those of you here, of course and those I read about but never get to meet) and so ashamed to be part of this twisted species. I can't and don't even want to understand these people, and never have. I don't belong here. As such, there is no real hope for me to heal among those of my own species and I don't know where to find the rare exceptions to the rule. It was my darling Nissa and Sabin who always gave me refuge from the cruelties of humans in this world. And now, I have only an empty house to come home to after such assaults on my sensibilities. Where will I ever FIND other animal lovers nearby????

look no further..here i am. for you always. i am so sorry that you and your dear husband had to go thru that. what insenstive people they were. and the way they treat their animals, it upsets me so. because the ones that suffer are the animals. they will never know what it will be like to be so loved by someone. its a shame really it is. again i am so sorry for you.
animal lovers have to stick together. thats us.
much luv
michelle

I hate saying it but my brother is like that. Him and my nieces go through dogs like crazy and it drives me nuts. The kids see a puppy and just have to have it. Of course as soon as the puppy grows up into a dog nobody wants anything to do with it anymore so the dog is neglected. They had a beautiful female St. Bernard for a while. After they got tired of her they kept her in a small cage inside the house because they didn't want her to come by them anymore. Then they would yell and scream at her when they let her out and she would run around very excited (well duh!). After a couple of weeks I told my brother he should find someone that actually wants a good dog to take her. We found a good family with a fenced in acre for her to go live with and run around.

Now my brother tells me he wants to get a cat. He has never been a cat person and always hated cats. I am trying so hard to discourage him from getting a cat. But it all boils down to him wanting to try to impress his new girlfriend who is a cat lover (such Jr. High behavior). When they break up what is he going to do with the cat then?

Why do people that don't want pets get pets?

Hi, Michelle and Simba's Daddy,

Thank you for some cyber-shoulders to lean on through this.

Yes, we tried our best to give these poor doggies as much affection and appreciation of their existence as we could in the 2 short visits we were allowed with them that evening...and boy, could you ever tell how very much they appreciated it, especially the older dog...who really is a total sweetheart.

We'd started out thinking that these people were quite nice, since it was them who took in this poor guy when the husband was still in the military. The wife told us this dog always got terrified whenever he saw a female in uniform, as that's who it was who abused him so terribly at the start. But then I heard all about their 'living' arrangements, and realized that they just liked to appear to be 'heroes' in his story, but their hearts were still in the wrong place. I even play-smacked the husband's arm when we were leaving and making our points about taking them out DAILY for exercise and fun, I was so frustrated. I figured this might drive the point home more, seeing as I'd just met this guy and it wasn't really a 'proper' thing to do with a virtual stranger! He runs miles during a week, yet only takes the dogs out about ONCE OR TWICE/week! How selfish is THAT?! And according to his wife, he's doing good if he remembers to clean up the pup's poop (in the garage) twice/week!!! And I kept harping about it being time to "bring them INSIDE!", especially now that the older dog has arthritis. But, knowing most people, he won't listen to good advise. If I could be a Superhero, I'd want to be known as "Super Defender of Animals"! What a satisfying job THAT would be! Swooping in and taking animals away from the less desireable types and placing them at the feet of those who REALLY want them!

Simba's Daddy, I'm so glad you were able to effect some change for your brother's one dog and that you spoke up freely about the situation! Way to go! Maybe you should ask your brother exactly the same question about a potential cat that you posed here...try to make him see all the ramifications from the cat's point of view, before he acts impulsively? Sigh....everywhere we look, we can too easily see people USING animals for their own, selfish ends....it makes me sick. WHEN will the human race grow up and accept that animals have their own, inherent value, just by being living, feeling, thinking creatures...as WE'RE supposed to be (the feeling and thinking parts are often severly lacking in our own species)?! We weren't ever meant to USE them, but to care for them!

This is the absolute worst time to be subjected to these horrors, while I'm still so early into the grief. It was always bad enough normally, when things were going okay for Nissa (and Sabin)...but now....now I just want to dispense with the diplomacy and utilize a mind-altering super-probe instead on these people!...and I know I'd have steady and unrelenting work ahead of me for years and years. So I keep trying to come up with some way, some events or organizations I could join in on, to try and actually meet people, in person, who already 'get' how valuable and precious animals are...but not something as direct (yet) as volunteering for a no-kill shelter, as the pain of seeing the homeless and abused would kill me right now...and not breeder groups, either, as they're part of the overpopulation problem. Anyone got any other ideas for something less traumatic right now that would still get me into a more caring circle of folks?

Humans can really make you sick!!!!!!
With the exceptions of those on this forum, most do not have that unconditional love inside of them to truly love a furbaby. I, on the other hand, know no other way than to treat my babies like human children.
I can only tell you what you already must know- limit your contact with people like that, and then pity them for never being able to feel and understand that kind of love and compassion that only comes from loving animals of all kinds.
You know this already too, never be afraid to speak up to people like that, and to speak for yourself when their insensitivity hurts you. Even if you think it falls on "deaf ears", it's worth mentioning for your own well being.
I'm sorry you had to experience such negativity during your grief, make sure you know who to lean on- your husband, and all of us fellow sufferers and lovers of furbabies here at LS.
I lost my twelfth mouse baby since November 2004 yesterday, and believe me, many people that don't see cats and dogs as family, certainly don't see a mouse as one, but they are. They ALL were, and my heart is broken. I love them all with everything I have inside, and I am left to deal with the heartbreak of losing them. Since May 2004, 3 cats, 12 mice, and my paternal Grandmother. Yes, I know grief, but I wouldn't trade anything they gave me while they were here with me just to spare myself the pain. I'm sure you agree. My heart and hugs to you.
Peace, Love and Prayers,
Michelle

Just one more thing, maybe get involved with a wildlife group. The animals would not be as closely related to your babies, so you wouldn't rub salt in your wounds, and even though you may experience heartbreak, you'll find more rewards in the help and not the hurt.
Just a suggestion to get you in the mode of helping animals and finding other souls like you to relate to.
Michelle

Thank you, Michelle, not only for your empathetic and wise thoughts, but for that suggestion! AND for your unequivocally honest first remark! I find it refreshing and hopeful to hear from others who get just as incensed as me about such matters of the heart.

In my grief, my head's not working too well when I want it to, so I'd never even thought of wildlife groups....not a bad idea. I'll look into it in the next while and see what there is out here (as long as they aren't harbouring hidden agendas for hunting 'conservation'; pretty popular in these parts!)

I'm also so sorry about your mousies (as well as all your other losses!). I know all animals, birds, reptiles, fish, etc. are all so special in their own ways, and it's just up to us to SEE and acknowledge that...but most never do. It's somehow 'beneath' them to admit that other species are equally as important and valuable as we are. Gotta hate that human superiority thing...

If you haven't yet read Kim Sheridan's "Animals and the Afterlife", I think you might like to, as her main loves have been rats, and while I already knew that rats were supposed to be very endearing, her own detailed stories of those she has loved and lost were total clinchers for me. And although I just seem to have a real draw towards felines, for some reason (must have been one myself in another life, I suspect!), her book had me wondering if I'd also like to share my life with some rats someday, too....IF they and any future cats can end up loving each other, too. I imagine mice are pretty similar, being of the same family. You'd probably also enjoy "Blessing the Bridge" by Rita Reynolds, who includes a poignant story of some mouse babies she tried to save. (she also saves insects and the 'lowliest' forms of life, continually, as I try to most of the time, too)

I have to admit that I always felt very hypocritical when I let our kidlets catch and eat mice and other rodents (and the very occasional bird) outdoors (I know, you're probably cringing and sickened by that, too....I understand, really!), and it was an inner battle that raged between my love of our felines and their natural desires and my love of all creatures....especially since I also thought the mousies were so sweet, too...even if they did chew parts of our house to pieces! I kept pleading with them to please just stay outdoors under our deck and in the garden and even tried some communications with them at times, as I'd read about this being successful from others who'd done this. (tried this with our ants, too) But I'm pretty sure, come Spring, we'll hear them in our walls again. I cant' tell you how many dozens we've tried our best to relocate well away from our place...not sure if they're still finding their way back, or if it's just new ones moving into the yard. There's just no finding where they're getting in (so we can plug holes up), as we have so much garden space, structures and hardscaping right up against the house...so we just have to live with any damage...probably a fair trade-off for them anyway, as we humans have damaged so much more of their natural habitat, by comparison, than they ever have of ours. (if you know of any other ways to discourage them from coming indoors, let me know!) One of our treasured pics of Nissa is one of her peaking out from one side of some small rocks, watching the mousie who's crawling underneath the rocks on the other side....so cute because it shows them BOTH looking so adorable, but extra-sweet because we know that, in this case, that mousie never got found by her, either, so all was well. The no-kill shelter woman I know also used to keep rescued mice when she was a young girl. It's terrible how most people label all sorts of creatures, even cats, as "vermin", whenever they DARE to try and exist close by...as if we're the only ones who are allowed to take up any precious space here! (it's not the animals who are ruining all our space....it's humans)

Thank you, too, for the encouragement to speak up on their behalf (I usually do anyway), as the anger comes even quicker when I'm so raw with sorrow.

You've certainly had more than your fair share of losses, Michelle, and I wish I could just change that for you...forever. It certainly seems to be the price we pay for caring and loving...not that that seems fair at ALL! Yes, the 'reward' is in the very act of loving, extending that love outwards to other souls, but still....I think it's time for a huge act of re-cocreation in our minds. If we could finally, actually evolve enough to part that veil and really SEE the Other Side, our REAL 'Side' of existence...then the hurt and sense of 'separation' could all just dissipate. I want us all to become mediums, so we can ALL, throughout the entire world, know for certain that our loved ones still are here, there and everywhere, AND so that everyone would know that ALL creatures are souls/spirits, just like us and are therefore worthy of every inherent right we all are potentially worthy of....and we wouldn't then have to wait for 'death' to keep experiencing life with them. A Pie-In-The-Sky dream?? I hope not.

Hey there Furkidlets' Mom,
Thank you for your kind words while in the midst of your grief. I couldn't agree with you more, humans are the ones who have to do the changing. We took over the planet as superior beings, and until the last few decades, no one ever gave a thought to the habitats and animal extinction that we did damage to. STUPID PEOPLE! Get a grip!
Most of theses animals were here before we were, so we should make sure they have their habitats to live in, and not just give them patches here and there between our homes and roads.
Thanks also for your suggestions of reading material from people that have been rodent lover's like myself, I'll look into those.
One more suggestion, and I cannot remember the exact company name, but I occassionally get their catalogs- like "Plow and Hearth" or "Gardener's Supply Company"
I think I saw it in the latter mentioned catalog. They carry a granulated natural meadow vole repellant. Meadow voles encompass field (deer) mice and moles etc. and the repellant works like this...It smells like fox urine ( but they are the only ones that can smell it, you won't ) and they sense a predator and just move on. You can put it around the perimeter of your house as well as on a plate in the middle of your attic, basement, or garage. They smell it and move out. I have never used it, but know people who have and they say great things about it. I'll try to get you more details, but you may find it if you do a bit of research. It is also harmless to other pets and children. Who could ask for more?
I actually feed the mice in my garage in the winter, and a few months ago, did my third rescue of a field mouse. My first one, Chance, was in 2001, and he lived for 3 years and 3 months. My second gal, Midget, came to us in July 2005 and is still with us. Stuart, my third, came to me in August this year, we call him "Stuey Irwin" in honor of Steve Irwin, and he has a poster on the outside of his cage that says, "Conservation Begins at Home." How fitting.
It's funny though, 2 of the 3 came to me from my hubby's sister and Midget came to me from his sister-in-law. The family knows me as "Mouse Mom".
Good luck in your wildlife quest, and of course with your grieving, such a long hard road. I'm here for ya!
Peace, Love, and Prayers,
Michelle

Michelle,

Thanks for the tip on the repellant. I'll get my H to look into it soon (busy enough myself!)....as long as it doesn't turn out to be made from REAL foxes! The other thing we thought we might try, though it's more expensive, is one of those ultrasonic repellers. We never dared try one while Nissa was here because their range of sound was actually IN the range that cats can hear...despite their 'reassurances' that it wouldn't affect felines.

We actually made the mistake of allowing the mice in our garage to stay one winter (kept our outdoor birdfood there), as our garage is attached to the house...and so they got inside the house somehow from there. Come spring, we had about 20 from the garage to relocate!

So did you have other animals that actually got along with your mousies, or did you just have to keep them well-separated? I've seen pics of rats with cats and dogs, touching noses and the like, but not with mice. And how do you keep them from getting that 'old sock' type of smell in their cages? Or is it just not noticeable unless there are lots of them together?

It's pretty special that you actually get some family members bringing you mice...as I'm sure you know, most people would just shriek and call you 'crazy'. I'm sure most people never want to know about the specialness of other species on the planet simply because they know, at some deeper level, that they'd then feel guilt and anxiety about how they DO treat them. Sigh...it's all such a sad state of affairs. We've not done well at ALL as 'stewards' of this planet.

My H and I have also decided NOT to attend his company's Christmas part this wknd, as now I'm way too nervous about what types of people I might have to sit with and talk to, and I just don't need the extra pressure.

I also had a girlfriend email me the absolute worst and tactless Christmas story 2 days ago. It was all about a girl who was dying just before Christmas, but (long story short) prayers, a visit from a mall Santa and a 'miracle' later, she survived and was still alive and well the next Christmas. I was incensed at this friend's poor, poor choice of 'forwards' to me! I emailed her back right away, telling her that I'm sure she was only trying to help somehow, but I found this story very UNhelpful, seeing as MY girl (she KNOWS how I thought of Nissa) DIDN'T survive, despite all my prayers!!! How utterly insensitive can these stupid people GET?!?!?! I haven't heard back from her yet and I hope her ears are simply burning with shame for being so unthinking and callous with my grief. I just seem to have the poorest excuses for friends and family around me.

Hey there,
I did have to keep thw wild mice seperate from each other. As for my pet fancy mice, the males had to be seperated because when they reach ***ual maturity, they become territorial and beat each other up. The females all lived together in one GIANT cage. It's so sad because the mouse I lost recently lived in there, and now there is one left.
(I'll quickly tell you that after my Chance passed on, I adopted 2 female mice from the SPCA, and it turned out that 1 was already a few days pregnant.) When she gave birth, there were 14 babies!!!! After the first 3 days there were 12 that survived, and I kept them all, carefully seperating them at 4 weeks so they wouldn't reproduce. The "old" sock smell as you put it only happens when they are not cleaned often enough. It would take me a whole day to clean the 8 cages I had at one time, now I have 5 cages, and it takes a half a day, but they are ( were) worth it. Besides, the cats love to watch "mouse t.v."
I don't think they use real foxes for the repellant, they just use their hormone for the scent. ( I would never recommend a product if animals were harmed to make it).
Take care to avoid insensitivity, and just take time to mourn your loss, and it could take a long time, but you'll get to a point where you'll remember more happy times. Nissa IS in the best place, next to your house, and you WILL see her again.
Peace, Love, and Prayers,
Michelle

Hi Michelle,

I'll still look into it, but I believe if real hormones are used in products, they 'harvest' them after the animal is killed. In the case of foxes, they would most likely come from a fur farm (shudder). I do know that in the making of many perfumes, cerval cats (a wild species) are either tortured or killed to get the pheremones that are used as a "fixative" in perfumes. (the hormone comes from their a*nal sacs) I learned of this years ago, and immediately stopped buying any perfumes that weren't natural by themselves...like essential oil perfumes from plants.

That sounds like quite a job to look after your mousies, and I applaud you for your efforts of love! So I gather your felines are pretty well-behaved and don't jump onto the cages to terrify the mice?

Sigh....I keep trying to avoid insensitivity, but it was pretty hard in this email case, since one can't tell in advance if a seemingly harmless 'forward' is going to end up being hurtful until you've actually read it! By then, it's too late. The worst thing about stuff like this coming from supposed friends (or family) is that, even after you've done your duty and told them how it made you feel (so the chances of them repeating it are minimized)...they refuse to apologize for their mistake, which makes the hurt even deeper! Is everyone so fragile, ego-wise, that they can't ever admit they made a mistake?!?! It's like they have to save face, no matter HOW big the consequences will be. In this case, I still haven't heard "boo" from this woman, and she usually phones me early each week if I haven't yet phoned her...so I suspect she DID read my emailed response and is now hanging onto her self-agrandizement of being the most helpful and inspiring human of all time, rather than just facing the music and saying a simple, "I'm sorry...I didn't think," in order to save our friendship. And THAT makes me feel like I'm just not worth that minor and short-lived embarrassment to her. Her heart just isn't opening up wide to accomodate my recently-broken one.

And here I was, apologizing to another friend for my poor memory during grief...something SHE also suffered with after she'd lost her father last year, so should have understood in the first place! Aaarrgghhh! Is it any wonder so many grievers end up isolating themselves?....and then 'they' tell you it's not healthy to isolate! Too much is up to US, when we're the ones who ought to be more catered to while we're hurting so much. People are too often too selfish, period. They back us into a corner from which there is no escape...then blame US for not helping ourselves! (yah, we're so"superior" to other species, intellectually... ) I'll tell you...I could really go for a "Hey! Let me groom the stuffin' outta ya for all the angst I just caused you!" kind of apology right now, like cats do when they've just 'bugged' their pals a little too much!

Yeah, you are right about the email thing, so many forwards and no way of knowing their content until you read. Perhaps her interpretation was different, and she really believes she caused no harm, even though you told her. I know many of my "friends" and "family" all thought they knew what was best for me when I was ( or am ) grieving, and they isolated me (at my request) to give me time. The problem with that was when I needed them , they were still gone. That led me to feel abandoned and angry, and my life and my relationships since I lost my sweet Mo, are irreparably changed. I am mostly on my own now, with very little communication with any of them. Even my hunny and I have been together for 17 years ( since high school), and our relationship is different. He didn't do anything wrong, but I changed alot! Insensitivity is EVERYWHERE! It all affected me on a permanent basis, and I didn't have alot of my animal family here to help me cope, and they were and are the most sensitive and helpful ones. I finally had to go back to my old counselor after 3 years of not needing her assistance, to deal with the grief and anger towards those people in my life- I'm still working on it .
As far as the fox hormone, I believe it is a similated one and not the real thing, but I'll have to look through my huge stack of catalogs to find it and be sure. The mice "think" it's real though, so it does it's job. One person that has used it is probably one of the greatest animal lovers I know, so I'm sure she wouldn't have used it if it harmed the beautiful foxes. I'll try calling her today, but she is elderly and hasn't been feeling well, so I'm not sure if I'll get a quick response. She used it to keep the mice out of her pet bird house ( I hate to use the word "pet", but I didn't want you to think she was keeping wild birds in captivity) and the only reason she didn't want them there, is that they were getting injured when someone would try to open the door to feed the birds. She actually has mice living in her walls, and they come out from behind the stove every morning for their toast that she gives them.
Take care and I'll keep you posted, and you keep me posted.
Love,
Michelle